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RE: [Corpus-Paul] Galatians 2:16: Exploring the Relationship between Faith and Works
- From: "John Brand" <jbrand AT gvsd.mb.ca>
- To: Corpus-Paul <corpus-paul AT lists.ibiblio.org>
- Subject: RE: [Corpus-Paul] Galatians 2:16: Exploring the Relationship between Faith and Works
- Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 16:42:13 -0500
From: "Doug Chaplin" <lists AT actually.me.uk>
To: "'Corpus-Paul'"
<corpus-paul AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: RE: [Corpus-Paul] Galatians 2:16: Exploring the Relationship
between Faith
and Works
Date sent: Thu,
12 Aug 2004 22:31:47 +0100
> > John Brand wrote:
>
> > > It is not that we are forgiven or made worthy of this kind of
> process by our own merit. It is that we are forgiven freely on the
> basis of Christ's sacrifice which frees God up to begin the inner
> the work that is necessary to have us doing what he requires.
>
> Jeffrey Gibson wrote:
>
> > Is forgiveness really a central concern of Paul?
>
> >John, then said:
>
> >No, is central concern is their walking in step with the Spirit
> >or as a result of the inner work of the Spirit
> >rather than by the outer code of the Judaizers.
>
> > Your question is thought provoking.
> >My statement above obviously anticipates how Paul is interpreted
> >after the reformation and offers an explanation of the relationship
> >between justification as a process that includes sanctification
> >(pre-Reformation) in view of the notional distinction
> > between justification and sanctification that becomes
> >prominent after the reformation.
Doug Responded:
Doug Chaplain, then, wrote:
Im not entirely convinced that the logic of Pauls thought is quite in this
direction.
[SNIP] In short, I think that the inner (Spirit), outer (Law) distinction belongs to a
secondary level of Pauls theology and that his primary is drawn more
fundamentally from apocalyptic eschatology, and is about succeeding ages.
John Brand responds:
I have taken some time to think through the interdependent concepts you have
outlined and will interact with them below my beginning comments here. Your
comments are a helpful elaboration of what I am seeing in Pauls Galatian
polemic; however, I am not entirely convinced that the inner/outer distinction and
the participation in Christ as the pattern for the people of God idea are two
different directions on separate planes of Pauls thought since both ideas are
integral to the prophetic vision of Isaiah and the other major prophets.
Also, it appears that you would see Christ as both pattern and propitiation for
those who are 'in Christ.' This provides some possible grounds for agreement
IMO.
Perhaps we might bring your points together under the idea of justification as a
process of renewal, restoration and vindication of the people of God (combining
your #3 and #5) which corresponds to the resurrection from the dead (your #2)
or the empowerment of the Holy Spirit (your #4) through a participation in the
sufferings of the servant of God (Messiah) who provides the pattern (your #1).
That God would take the initiative in this whole process is proof of his
forgiveness (again your #4).
I am modifying your delineation in two ways
(1) I am adding our participation in the sufferings of Christ as a people of God
as the cause that produces the effect of our experiencing the resurrection of the
dead; and
(2) I am equating the resurrection of the dead with the result of justification
which I am saying is empowerment through the Holy Spirit.
Let me just take each point and show you how I thought we might come to a
consensus:
Doug Chaplain wrote:
(1) The people of God are redefined as those in Christ, rather than those
keeping the law [SNIP]
[I] see in Christ
as including faith that Christ is
the faithful one, who now provides that pattern for Israel, and the representative
one (King, Messiah), through whom God can truly deal with Israel.
John Brand responds:
In terms of what you are calling apocalyptic eschatology (Deutero Isaiah,
Jeremiah, Ezekiel, etc.), Christ is the anointed servant whose suffering restores
the elected remnant to God and through this remnant brings justice to the
nations. For example, Isaiah 42:2 says I have put my spirit upon him and he will
bring justice [+I&PFT (Mishpat)] to the nations, and He shall not fail nor be
discouraged, till he have set judgment (Mishpat) in the earth (42:4). He provides
the pattern: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify [yac:diq; Hiphil
stem cause to be just) many (53:11 cf. Daniel 12:3 for the sense of Hiphil turn
many to righteousness for w+ac:diyqiy+).
For Isaiah it is by the wounds of the servant that the remnant is healed (Isaiah
53:5); it is the servant who gathers Israel to himself (49:5). Peter understands
this as the upogrammos (1 Peter 2:21: pattern, example) that the elect diaspora
are to look to in their fulfillment of their role as a nation of priests and kings since
this is how they returned to the shepherd and guardian of our souls (2:25). And
I am convinced that this is the language of justification in Paul.
To prove this I offer a comparison of Galatians 2:16 with Philippians 3:9:
Ou dikaioutai anqrwpos ex ergwn nomou ean mh dia pistews Ihsou Cristou ina
dikaiWqwmen ek pistews Cristou kai ouk ex ergwn nomou (Galatians 2:16)
Mh ecwn emhn dikaiosunhn thn ek nomou all thn dia pistews Cristou thn ek
qeou dikaiosunhn epi th pistei (Philippians 3:9)
The idea of justification that these two texts can support exegetically is a
process where a man actually possesses dikaiosunhn not from himself but thn
dia pistews Cristou thn ek qeou dikaiosunhn epi th pistei. However, both texts
indicate that there is a participation in Christ that is tangible. In the Galatians
text, the Jew is practicing ergwn nomou which I would suggest is an exceeding
of the dikaiosunhn of Second Temple Judaism seen in terms of Jesus higher
call that they do the one (ergwn nomou) but not neglect the weightier matters of
righteousness, justice and truth (Matthew 23:23). Thus, by looking to the pattern
of Christ and participating in his cross (Matthew 10), the result of righteousness
is achieved not as a result of his own effort but as a result of the work of the
Holy Spirit within his heart. This, I would suggest is what makes the forgiveness
of God operative: forgive us
as we forgive those who trespass against us.
Doug wrote:
>
> 2) That the God who deals with Israel in Christ, is the one who
> through the resurrection of Christ, restores Israel from its deepest
> exile, and reconciles them to himself.
John responds:
I would agree with the interpretation of the purpose of the death and resurrection
of Christ as the means of the restoration of Israel from a 'deep' exile by
reconciling them to himself. Isaiah 49:5 indicates that the servant will 'gather
Israel to himself' as Micah also says 'I will gather the lame; I will assemble the
exiles and those I have brought to grief. I will make the lame a remnant, those
driven away a strong nation' (4:6-7). I would further interpret Isaiah 53 to indicate
that the wounds of the servant bring about a change in the nature of the nation
rather than merely a change in status: 'by his wounds we are healed' (cf. 1 Peter
2:25).
Doug wrote:
> 3) That this is the primary meaning of "forgiveness" for Paul, who
> fundamentally follows second Isaiah: it is a national restoration, not
> an individual remission, but applies to individuals as they enter the
> renewed Israel through the Messiah.
John responds:
The corporate idea is an important aspect so that Christ is found in his ekklesia.
Doug wrote:
>
> 4) That this forgiveness is proved, because they inherit the gift of
> the Holy Spirit, that is the immediate presence and empowerment of
> God, and that for Paul this immediate presence of the Spirit
> effectively replaces the land as the object of the promised
> restoration, just as the body of Christ (Christ with believers
> together) replaces the temple.
John responds:
Does the promise to Abraham then no longer include 'land,' in your view? If so,
how do you work this out exegetically? If not, how do you incorporate the
promises given to the nation of Israel into this interpretation of the place of the
Holy Spirit and Christ in the 'succeeding age' or 'apocalyptic eschaton'?
According to the vison of Deutero Isaiah, the Spirit is poured out upon the
remnant so that the promise can become actualized (Isaiah 32:15). Messiah is
the pattern which the remnant is to follow in the power of the Holy Spirit (Servant
Songs of Isaiah).
I would see the Holy Spirit replacing the land and the 'believers together'
replacing the temple ideas as functioning as the means to two ends: The
presence of God in the ekklesia does what was originally intended through
Abraham 'all families of the earth shall bless themselves (Hebrew Niphal Stem)
in you' (Genesis 12:3). That is, the nations of the earth are drawn to the church
away from the domination of the principalities and powers (Ephesians 3:10) just
as the dragon is defeated in Revelation by the suffering of the lamb.
Doug wrote:
>
> 5) That justification offers a different take on the whole process,
> looked at more from the point of view of asking the question "How can
> we know this person / group belongs to the people of God?"
>
John responds:
According to the outline you have provided, the answer to your question would
be that we know this person/group belongs to the people of God by the result of
justification as a process. In my view, because justification for Paul, the
prophets, Jesus and the Patristic era is viewed as a process and proved by the
result, the people of God are just coram deo et coram homnibus. How would you
answer the question? Or, how are we differing in view point so that your answer
and my answer are different viz a vis you may answer the question the justified
are just coram deo rather than coram homnibus?
Doug wrote:
>
> In short, I think that the inner (Spirit), outer (Law) distinction
> belongs to a secondary level of Paul's theology and that his primary
> is drawn more fundamentally from apocalyptic eschatology, and is about
> succeeding ages.
John responds:
IMO the apocalyptic eschatology characterize the new age as an age in which
God works within the heart of his people rather than through the mediation of an
external legal code.
Moses presents Torah as something which can be done: the word is very near
you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it (Deuteronomy
30:14). The prophets apply this message to the anticipated remnant: I will put
my torah in their minds (Jeremiah 31:33); I will remove from them their heart of
stone and give them a heart of flesh (Ezekiel 11:19); till the Spirit is poured
upon us from on high
justice will dwell in the desert and righteousness live in
the fertile field (Isaiah 32:15-16).
Paul can then point to the manifest dominance of sarx versus Spirit as the
evidence of those who will not inherit the kingdom of God (Galatians 5:21) even
though they may outwardly conform to Torah in terms of that which is not love
but legalism.
John Brand
B.A. Bib Stu (Providence College, Otterburne, MB, Canada, 1980)
M.Min. (Providence Seminary, 1991)
jbrand AT gvsd.mb.ca
-
RE: [Corpus-Paul] Galatians 2:16: Exploring the Relationship betw een Faith and Works,
JERRY SUMNEY, 08/11/2004
-
Re: [Corpus-Paul] Galatians 2:16: Exploring the Relationship between Faith and Works,
Rabbi Saul, 08/11/2004
-
Re: [Corpus-Paul] Galatians 2:16: Exploring the Relationship between Faith and Works,
John Brand, 08/11/2004
-
Re: [Corpus-Paul] Galatians 2:16: Exploring the Relationshipbetween Faith and Works,
Jeffrey B. Gibson, 08/11/2004
- Re: [Corpus-Paul] Galatians 2:16: Exploring the Relationshipbetween Faith and Works, Rabbi Saul, 08/11/2004
-
Re: [Corpus-Paul] Galatians 2:16: Exploring the Relationshipbetween Faith and Works,
John Brand, 08/12/2004
-
RE: [Corpus-Paul] Galatians 2:16: Exploring the Relationship between Faith and Works,
Doug Chaplin, 08/12/2004
- RE: [Corpus-Paul] Galatians 2:16: Exploring the Relationship between Faith and Works, John Brand, 08/16/2004
-
RE: [Corpus-Paul] Galatians 2:16: Exploring the Relationship between Faith and Works,
Doug Chaplin, 08/12/2004
- [Corpus-Paul] Forgiveness as a central concern of Paul, Bob MacDonald, 08/12/2004
-
Re: [Corpus-Paul] Galatians 2:16: Exploring the Relationshipbetween Faith and Works,
Rabbi Saul, 08/11/2004
-
Re: [Corpus-Paul] Galatians 2:16: Exploring the Relationshipbetween Faith and Works,
John Brand, 08/12/2004
-
Re: [Corpus-Paul] Galatians 2:16: Exploring the Relationshipbetween Faith and Works,
Ian W. Scott, 08/12/2004
-
Re: [Corpus-Paul] Galatians 2:16: Exploring the Relationshipbetween Faith and Works,
John Brand, 08/12/2004
- Re: [Corpus-Paul] Galatians 2:16: Exploring theRelationshipbetween Faith and Works, Rabbi Saul, 08/12/2004
-
Re: [Corpus-Paul] Galatians 2:16: Exploring the Relationshipbetween Faith and Works,
John Brand, 08/12/2004
- Re: [Corpus-Paul] Galatians 2:16: Exploringthe Relationshipbetween Faith and Works, Rabbi Saul, 08/12/2004
-
Re: [Corpus-Paul] Galatians 2:16: Exploring the Relationshipbetween Faith and Works,
Ian W. Scott, 08/12/2004
-
Re: [Corpus-Paul] Galatians 2:16: Exploring the Relationshipbetween Faith and Works,
John Brand, 08/12/2004
-
Re: [Corpus-Paul] Gal 2:19 & Rom 7,
Loren Rosson, 08/11/2004
-
Re: [Corpus-Paul] Gal 2:19 & Rom 7,
Rabbi Saul, 08/11/2004
- Re: [Corpus-Paul] Gal 2:19 & Rom 7, meta, 08/12/2004
-
Re: [Corpus-Paul] Gal 2:19 & Rom 7,
Rabbi Saul, 08/11/2004
-
Re: [Corpus-Paul] Galatians 2:16: Exploring the Relationshipbetween Faith and Works,
Jeffrey B. Gibson, 08/11/2004
-
Re: [Corpus-Paul] Galatians 2:16: Exploring the Relationship between Faith and Works,
John Brand, 08/11/2004
-
Re: [Corpus-Paul] Galatians 2:16: Exploring the Relationship between Faith and Works,
Rabbi Saul, 08/11/2004
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