corpus-paul AT lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Corpus-Paul
List archive
- From: "meta" <meta AT rraz.net>
- To: "Corpus-Paul" <corpus-paul AT lists.ibiblio.org>
- Subject: [Corpus-Paul] Second Temple Judaism and Covenant
- Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 14:08:51 -0700
John: This is my response to the first part of your message, which
was rejected apparently because I forgot to take off the tail. So I'll try
again and apologize to moderator.
YOU: which implies also the partial
non-fulfillment
ME: Would you explain this--within the Tanakh please, without imputing the NT to explain it? If you consider this possible. Your explanation of promise and blessing (I would say "and" not "or"), is IMO very good. The Tanakh clearly shows with the major prophets that God's promise and blessing are for all of God's creation, spreading from "the remnant" to all nations through expected Yehud's influence. The remnant was not itself elected. It was the remnant of those chosen people already elected at the beginning. Paul points to the new way of God's action through Christ as the remnant under Rome spreading the new Gospel. In other words, the remnant continued throughout. What it takes is what now is guaranteed to work, according to Paul. The parties to the covenant reflect the dominant patron/client principle/practice of ancient times, all the way through Roman times, and even today but not so dominant. Default never has been primal or necessary in the patronage scheme. Dependence is. Restoration occurred through release from the conquering nation and return to the homeland in the "New Israel" second temple times. Of course, we know it didn't work. They remained weak and then the Romans took over. So now Paul says restoration and salvation again has come, being offered by God for the final time, but in a different--entirely different--way. I think, contrary to your statement, the old covenant did not work (Torah), so now there is a new covenant in Paul's theology which does replace the old covenant. Does this make me a supercessonist? In a sense yes, but it appears that God is a pragmatist, and a very persevering one at that (but not that Jewism is replaced). And he did it before, as I interpret your very good analysis of the flood
time, when God established (without human approval this time, "make": both
initiated and confirmed) a new covenant after experiencing the failure of the
old one to work, and then that one was dumped for another new covenant provided
by the messiah Cyrus, and that one didn't work either. Paul says
in effect neither of these three covenants worked, so God now is instituting one guaranteed to work BECAUSE it doesn't depend on human beings. IMO the history of the covenant is not "renewing" but trying anew in a different way, but always through Torah (so renewing in the Torah sense), until Paul, when Torah is dumped--but only in the covenant sense. Hellenized thinking already had begun long before Paul, and perhaps Zoroastrian influenced the very strong dichotomy between good and evil, whereas in the Tanakh is was obeyance and disobeyance, righteousness and unrighteousness without making the ontological statement. Jaspers' Axial Age began in the 8th century with the exponential increased
market economy, including very extended trade, developing the great flowering of
religion world-wide, gaining its apex in the 6th century, when btw the Tanakh
was composed. I wouldn't say God did it by moving families around, but
that it was humanity compensating for these new economic conditions which had
very adverse effects upon all society, especially in the separation from the
wealthy/well-off and the poor dying or hardly surviving--as Jaspers points
out. Practical ethics, sympathy and religious empathy, self-giving love,
salvation, etc. became dominant in all world religions, especially in the new
religion of Buddhism (without God).
Richard Godwin. |
-
[Corpus-Paul] Second Temple Judaism and Covenant,
meta, 08/14/2004
-
Re: [Corpus-Paul] Second Temple Judaism and Covenant,
John Brand, 08/17/2004
-
Re: [Corpus-Paul] Second Temple Judaism and Covenant,
meta, 08/18/2004
-
Re: [Corpus-Paul] Second Temple Judaism and Covenant,
Rabbi Saul, 08/18/2004
-
Re: [Corpus-Paul] Second Temple Judaism and Covenant,
meta, 08/18/2004
-
Re: [Corpus-Paul] Second Temple Judaism and Covenant,
Rabbi Saul, 08/18/2004
-
Re: [Corpus-Paul] Second Temple Judaism and Covenant,
meta, 08/19/2004
- Re: [Corpus-Paul] Second Temple Judaism and Covenant, Rabbi Saul, 08/19/2004
- Re: [Corpus-Paul] Second Temple Judaism and Covenant, meta, 08/19/2004
-
Re: [Corpus-Paul] Second Temple Judaism and Covenant,
meta, 08/19/2004
-
Re: [Corpus-Paul] Second Temple Judaism and Covenant,
Rabbi Saul, 08/18/2004
-
Re: [Corpus-Paul] Second Temple Judaism and Covenant,
meta, 08/18/2004
-
Re: [Corpus-Paul] Second Temple Judaism and Covenant,
Rabbi Saul, 08/18/2004
-
Re: [Corpus-Paul] Second Temple Judaism and Covenant,
meta, 08/18/2004
-
Re: [Corpus-Paul] Second Temple Judaism and Covenant,
John Brand, 08/17/2004
- <Possible follow-up(s)>
- RE: [Corpus-Paul] Second Temple Judaism and Covenant, JERRY SUMNEY, 08/19/2004
- Re: RE: [Corpus-Paul] Second Temple Judaism and Covenant, moon, 08/19/2004
Archive powered by MHonArc 2.6.24.