Corpus-Paul

[Jeff Peterson <peterson AT mail.austingrad.edu>]

At 4:44 PM -0500 4/8/03, David Inglis wrote:
> In any case, isn't the argument about ecclesiology in the Pastoral circular
> to begin with, i.e.: The ecclesiology of the Pastorals didn't exist in the
> 1st century, therefore the Pastorals can't be 1st century.

The argument is a bit stronger than this; it's more like, "The church 
structure evident in the Pastorals is nearer what one sees in 
Ignatius than in the undisputed Paulines, hence the Pastorals ought 
to be dated in the late first or the second century, rather than the 
mid-first."

Where the argument can be faulted is in its characterization of the 
Pauline churches as unstructured and egalitarian. 1 Thess 5 clearly 
distinguishes between Christians who preside and are charged with the 
admonition of their fellows (vv. 12-13) and the membership at large 
(vv. 14ff). 1 Cor 16:15-16 reflects the same kind of distinction in 
the Corinthian house churches and appeals to the church at large to 
be subordinate to leaders like Stephanas. And Phil 1:1 refers to 
EPISKOPOI and DIAKONOI, the same terms used in the Pastorals, as 
integral to the church.

What appears more elaborate in the Pastorals is the degree of 
definition these functions have acquired, but this may be a trick of 
the light as we don't know what Paul told the Thessalonians, 
Corinthians, Philippians, et al. about the qualifications and 
functions of these roles in the course of his work to establish 
stable churches that would endure after his departure (which would 
require some degree of structure).

There are of course other grounds on which the Pastorals are 
accounted pseudonymous.

Jeff Peterson
--
Jeffrey Peterson
Associate Professor of New Testament
Austin Graduate School of Theology
Austin, Texas, USA
> From davidlbarr AT ameritech.net  Wed Apr  9 08:06:25 2003
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From: "David L. Barr" <davidlbarr AT ameritech.net>
To: "'Corpus-Paul'" <corpus-paul AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: RE: [Corpus-Paul] Ecclesiology in the Pastorals & the DSS
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 08:06:47 -0400
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To take Prof. Peterson's argument one step further: what cannot be found in
the undisputed letters is any sense that the leaders of the churches must
meet higher moral and social standards than others in the assembly.

David L. Barr
Professor of Religion
Wright State University
Dayton OH

937-775-2293
937-775-2892 (FAX)
http://www.wright.edu/~david.barr

-----Original Message-----
From: corpus-paul-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org
[mailto:corpus-paul-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Jeff Peterson
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2003 10:18 PM
To: Corpus-Paul
Subject: RE: [Corpus-Paul] Ecclesiology in the Pastorals & the DSS


At 4:44 PM -0500 4/8/03, David Inglis wrote:
> In any case, isn't the argument about ecclesiology in the Pastoral 
> circular to begin with, i.e.: The ecclesiology of the Pastorals didn't 
> exist in the 1st century, therefore the Pastorals can't be 1st century.

The argument is a bit stronger than this; it's more like, "The church 
structure evident in the Pastorals is nearer what one sees in 
Ignatius than in the undisputed Paulines, hence the Pastorals ought 
to be dated in the late first or the second century, rather than the 
mid-first."

Where the argument can be faulted is in its characterization of the 
Pauline churches as unstructured and egalitarian. ...snip....
Jeff Peterson