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  • From: Bob MacDonald <bobmacdonald AT shaw.ca>
  • To: 'Corpus-paul' <corpus-paul AT franklin.oit.unc.edu>
  • Subject: Re: Paul and homosexuality?
  • Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 20:43:25 -0700


Dear Stephen

thank you for your response. I have just a few clarifications and one
conundrum.

Bob: Asceticism does not imply sexless being.

Stephen: It does imply that if one says that it's alright to get married if
you are burning with desire, but "I would prefer that men were as myself."

Bob: definitely disagree that you are considering all possibilities. The
desire of a human is clearly in view in Psalm 42:1; worshipper wishing to
come into the presence. In this case God is the satisfier of the desire.
There is no reason to assume that the charism of celibacy excludes this.

-----------
Bob: What about 'if you by the Spirit do put to death the deeds of the body,
you will live'

Stephen: I do think that that statement from Colossians implies
encratism/celibacy.

Bob: sorry I did not give the reference; it is Romans 8:13 - I think in its
context (who shall deliver me) it is clearly a deliverance from the kinds of
excessive covetousness and desire that can afflict a man such as Paul.

--------------

Bob: I would take 1 Cor 7:7 as I quoted in a prior post as referring to
Paul's own sexual experience. Is there anyone else out there who reads it
this way?

Stephen: Quite possibly, but that in no way negates the suggestion that he
became a dedicated celibate, as an act of religious purity. People with a
sexual history are just the people who often do that.

Bob: Yes, I agree - he may well have a history of inordinate sexual desire
(I am assuming this is the intent of your phrase) and he may have sublimated
this through his zeal for Israel. His conversion will have included working
out this desire and achieving 'self-control' (2 Timothy 1:7). Perhaps his
instruction in Romans 8:13 indicates one of the ways in which he found an
explanation of the pattern he himself followed in finding his life in
Christ.

I read in a footnote in 'Mystery' by Nanos that the prevailing view of
circumcision was that it reduced inordinate desire. I don't know if this was
prevailing in the first or the 21st century. I think Maimonides implies
this, but I doubt if it is true. Whatever the issue, Paul, circumcised, may
have had a 'sexual history' as you put it. (On purity - see further below -
a key concept, not to have assumptions made about it.)

----------------

Bob: This is to say nothing of the positive attitude towards incarnation

Stephen: I do not suggest that Paul's position is hostile to the fundamental
doctrine of the Incarnation.

Bob: I was not speaking of doctrine as much as experience. In John it is the
phrase: this is eternal life, to know thee and Jesus Christ whom thou hast
sent. It is also the many indwellings spoken of in the farewell discourse
(John 14-16). Some identify this with forms of mysticism (John of the Cross,
the Cloud of Unknowing) but the mystical while related to the phrase in
Ephesians 5:32, is a very positive statement of the knowledge of God in the
flesh. Lewis refers to this in his wartime sermon, The Weight of Glory, and
Charles Williams in his Descent of the Dove. These are theologians and
novelists of the human experience and the imputation of the divine in that
experience. They do not deny sexuality as is the common understanding of
asceticism.

John also adds - those who have this hope in themselves purify themselves as
he is pure. This is very much in line with Nanos statement of the intent of
Romans: worship in purity together, both Gentile and Jew. The Jewish
experience of the loving kindness of God documented in the Psalms (a hymn
book not subject to modernism - thank God!)

--------------

Bob: "body is the temple of the Holy Spirit"[is] very positive

Stephen: Yes, indeed. Paul, unlike many other ascetics, could say things in
a way that would be very meaningful to non-ascetics. He could state a
universal truth (and I don't care if that is nowadays a political incorrect
term).

Bob: here is the conundrum: Paul has a well developed doctrine of the Body
of Christ as temple long before the destruction of the temple. The people,
Jew and Gentile together, become the dwelling place for God. What
relationship does this have to temple as building - past and present? I am
again reminded of the Psalm: One [thing] have I desired of the LORD, that
will I seek after; that I may dwell in the house of the LORD all the days of
my life, to behold the beauty of the LORD, and to enquire in his temple.
(Psalm 27:4)

There is the potential for a poetic and symbolical reading of all the Tanach
with a view to this one thing. Today we read of the visitation to Abraham
and Sarah (Genesis 18 and 21). As I read it, I saw echoes of the tree of
life, the Song of Solomon, the presence of the most high in the act of
conception of a child, the laughter (Isaac). I almost wondered if it should
be read as poetry, one person's way of affirming the miracle of love in
creation at a very human level. Mind you, the results (cast out the woman
and her child) are only attractive for a moment. But that is the problem
with us humans, isn't it.

fuel for the fire, perhaps

blessings

Bob

mailto::BobMacDonald AT shaw.ca
+ + + Victoria, B.C., Canada + + +

Catch the foxes for us,
the little foxes that make havoc of the vineyards,
for our vineyards are in flower. (Song 2.15)
http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca







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