Baslinux mailing list

["Ron Clarke" <ariadne AT ausreg.com>]

Hi Steve,

On Wed, 31 Jan 2007 16:54:19 -0600, S. Porter wrote:

> [closet mode off]

> Greetings, Steven, Ron, and all.

> Before I begin, Ron, in reinforcing Steven's points, I am in no way jumping
> on you, so please don't take it that way.

   Don't worry. I don't take offence at anything very much, life is too
short.  :)

>  I have learned much from you, so
> I know others have, also. We've had too many flames in this forum lately and
> it has become tiring, so I just want to make my position clear before I
> start. :-)

> 3aoo-cvfd AT dea.spamcon.org wrote:
>> It seems to me that your "tool that has a comfortable
>> familiar feel" has got Greg into more trouble than it
>> was worth.  Surely it's not too difficult for a DOS
>> user to cope with the BL3 commands:  cd, dir, copy, del,
>> ren, edit.  Combine those with d (to browse directories
>> and view files) and there is absolutely no need for the
>> Midnight Command package and the lynx package (particularly
>> when you are running BL3 on a loop file that has limited
>> space for add-ons).

> Furthering Steven's point:
> In order to develop skills as a power user (which, granted, not all aspire
> to become),

   A pertinent proviso, I agree.  :)

>  one must learn to use the tools at hand by using the tools at
> hand, not by using a crutch (in this case, mc); i.e., in order to learn to
> use linux command line tools, one must use linux command line tools.

   I think I have been a bit misinterpretted here. I suggested using mc
in order to have a look round, get the hang of the way linux arranges
its directories and so on.

   Never, and I am sure Greg would confirm this, have a ever even hinted
that a convenient tool like mc be used INSTEAD of learning Linux
commands.  MC is not a "crutch" but a way for someone used to DOS file
managers, but new to Linux file systems, just to get a feel for the way
things look.

>  I
> think this is especially true with a "lightweight" (in terms of resource
> requirements, not in terms of capability) linux. I do not speak on the
> behalf of other DOS users, but it was an easy step for me to go from the DOS
> command line to the linux command line.

   And for me, too - now !  But there was a period right at the beginning when
it was a very daunting prospect, and this is where I understand the
trepidation of Linux newbies - it wasn't all that long ago for me.

   I still find it challenging, but I am a bit more comfortable now.

>>> Command lines are also wonderfully empowering

> HEAR, HEAR!!! From your fingers to the creator's ears!!!

> [start BL CLI promotion mode]

> I was having a discourse with another BL user last week and expressed these
> sentiments and was told that I should express them to Steven because he
> seems to receive more complaints than "atta boys", so here it is:

> This (the power of the CLI) is exactly why BL has its own niche in the
> endless scheme of distros (and is also why all of us are here in this forum,
> I dare say). It (the CLI) is VERY powerful, and when an operating system of
> such spartan requirements yields such power and capability and flexibility,
> the result is exquisite! I, for one, have been far too negligent in
> expressing to Linus, Patrick V., Rob L., Bernhard, Denis, and (more
> specifically) Steven my gratitude for the tools that they have provided and
> added to, to make linux, busybox and, specifically BL, the magnificent tools
> that they are today!

   I couldn't agree more.  :)

    And I also think that with the foresight employed by aliasing some of
the more common CLI commands to make them more accessible to DOS users,
too seldom does Steven get the credit he is due.

>  No, I'm not sucking up to Steven, but I earnestly
> appreciate the time and effort that he and others have dedicated to
> providing a tool that some (I refer not to anyone in particular here) only
> want and expect more from than what it was intended to be.  I refer not to
> the constant pushing of the envelope of development, because I never fail to
> be amazed at the talent and resourcefulness of BL users at adapting to and
> overcoming hurdles and obstacles.  I consider this forum to be an invaluable
> source of support and knowledge.  I have found in this forum a very gung-ho
> group of...loyalists...that continue to extend the usefulness of BL, and I
> appreciate all of the talent that has been exhibited in this forum. It seems
> that we often get a burr under our saddle too quickly and forget that we're
> all here for the same reason; to learn more about BL and how to make it even
> more useful to us than it already is.

    No argument from me on that.

>> Yes they are, and true DOS users should be very comfortable
>> there.  However point-and-click Windows users (or dedicated
>> Norton Commander users, for that matter) may not be so
>> comfortable.

> From what I have been reading here over the past month or so, I infer that
> Greg is a fairly new comer to linux.  I know that Ron meant only the best
> when he suggested mc, but it has always been my policy (whether teaching
> others or attempting to learn myself) to begin with the basics first so as
> to provide a good foundation to build upon before introducing them to
> alternative measures.  Otherwise, the basics may not be learned fully enough
> to build upon later, which becomes a hindrance in the "long run".

   Again, I cannot disagree with what you say.

   But let me add, as a user of mc and also a lot of the X progs, that I
am doing a lot of stuff making things work, getting jobs done
(profesionally as well as for private amusement) with BL 1/2/3, and
learning about Linux as I go.  At my age (61) I am not as attracted to
learning for learning's sake as I once was. I let the learning happen
naturally, because that suits me best.  And I am having a ball while I
do it.

   I think Greg is about my vintage, and we have corresponded off-list
for a long time before he joined the BL list. I have, accordingly, let
him know what I found to be helpful at the very beginning of MY Linux
experience FWIW.

   Let the flames go above all our heads.  :)

Regards,
        Ron



Ron Clarke
AUSREG Consultancy      http://www.ausreg.com
Tadpole Tunes           http://www.tadpoletunes.com
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