| John,
Geminate roots are direct evidence of bi-literal roots. In my experience (quite limited of course) gemination is a derivative process, or rather it has a goal in mind, such as intensification, or iteration of a simpler action.
Jonathan Mohler Send b-hebrew mailing list submissions to
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: ($ (job 4:19) (J. Leake)
2. ($ (job 4:19) (Uri Hurwitz)
3. Re: ($ (job 4:19) (J. Leake)
4. Re: ($ (job 4:19) (Isaac Fried)
5. Re: ($ (job 4:19) (Isaac Fried)
6. Re: b-hebrew ($ (Job 4:19) (Jonathan Mohler)
7. Re: b-hebrew Digest, Vol 126, Issue 40 (Jonathan Mohler)
8. Re: ($ (job 4:19) (Jonathan Mohler)
9. Re: ($ (job 4:19) (Isaac Fried)
From: "J. Leake" <jesleake AT yahoo.co.uk>
Date: June 22, 2013 2:56:12 PM CDT
To: "Nir cohen - Prof. Mat." <nir AT ccet.ufrn.br>, David Kolinsky <hadeesh AT sbcglobal.net>, K Randolph <kwrandolph AT gmail.com>
Cc: B-Hebrew <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] ($ (job 4:19)
Reply-To: "J. Leake" <john.leake AT shikar.co.uk>
Hmm, Nir, I'm not sure that I'd want to try and draw too many conclusions from biliteral roots myself. I agree that they are possible, and indeed the biliteral root is supposed to be the origin of the triliteral root, but that's in the deeply obscure pre-history of the Semitic languages. To really systematicaly get to grips with biliteral roots I suspect you'd need a wide knowledge of the earliest Semitic languages and of the other Afro-Asiatic languages too, at least Egyptian. It would be a fascinating study, I agree, but the material is likely to be too vague and to early to be of any demonstrable help in understanding Hebrew as we know it. On the other hand, identifying the mechanisms for root production would be
interesting where a root seems to exist in Hebrew alone. שחה in our recent discussion is a good case in point, where we can see where the one root transforms into - or is read as - another and a new root comes ino existence. Naturally, if biliteral proto-roots catch your interest, however, that's likely to be personally helpful, so don't be put off by me.
John Leake
'inna SâHiba Hayâtin hanî'atin lâ yudawwinuhâ: 'innamâ, yaHyâhâ.
(He who lives a comfortable life doesn't write about it - he lives it.)
Tawfiq al-Hakim, Yawmiyyât Nâ'ib fil-'Aryâf.
From: Nir cohen - Prof. Mat. <nir AT ccet.ufrn.br>
To: J. Leake <john.leake AT yahoo.co.uk>; David Kolinsky <hadeesh AT sbcglobal.net>; K Randolph <kwrandolph AT gmail.com>
Cc: B-Hebrew <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Saturday, 22 June 2013, 4:19
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] ($ (job 4:19)
john, david
considering the hebrew ($$ (get dark?) and ($N (smoke), i would associate ($ with black/dark.
i think i made a similar remark a year or two ago in connection with ESAU.
nir cohen
On Sat, 22 Jun 2013 01:49:38 +0100 (BST), J. Leake wrote
> David, to help your search, be aware that the second/third root letter of עש 'aš - 'moth' - is from the proto-Semitic θ /th/ which becomes t in Aramaic, s in Ethiopic (and doubtless Amharic from there) and š in Canaanite and Akkadian. What a pleasing conceit that the moth should fall into the fire...
>
> Akkadian has ašašu according to CAD which appears in a lexical list with the common word for moth, sassu/sāsu, as a
gloss. And Hebrew sas סס is a synonym for עש, isn't it? The case is looking strong for moth, isn't it!
>
>
> John Leake
>
> 'inna SâHiba Hayâtin hanî'atin lâ yudawwinuhâ: 'innamâ, yaHyâhâ.
> (He who lives a comfortable life doesn't write about it - he lives it.)
> Tawfiq al-Hakim, Yawmiyyât Nâ'ib fil-'Aryâf.
>
> From: David Kolinsky <hadeesh AT sbcglobal.net>
> To: Nir cohen - Prof. Mat. <nir AT ccet.ufrn.br>; K Randolph <kwrandolph AT gmail.com>
> Cc: B-Hebrew <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Saturday, 22 June 2013, 1:57
> Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] ($ (job 4:19)
>
>
> Nir / Karl etc:
>
> I quickly checked (while my 14 month old was screaming for me to pick her up)
> my simple dictionaries for Akkadian, Syriac, Sabaic and Amharic.
>
> Only Amharic had moth under the same heading as fire ?S(sibilant)(I don't remember if it was S or Sh).
> Clearly I am no expert - but my understanding is that Amharic has lost its distinction between aleph, ayin, heh, and chaet.
> Hence it was with its equivalent of AeSh = fire.
>
> My understanding for the base meaning for \S - \Sh is "to perform / persist at something"
> Caterpillar's seem to be insatiable consumers, perhaps it has something to do with that?
>
> David Kolinsky,
> Monterey, CA
>
>
>
>
> From: Nir cohen - Prof. Mat. <nir AT ccet.ufrn.br>
> To: K Randolph <kwrandolph AT gmail.com>
> Cc: B-Hebrew <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Friday, June 21, 2013 2:03 PM
> Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] ($ (job 4:19)
>
>
> karl,
>
> really, looking a bit closer into the problem, i discovered that moth is indeed considered the
> main destroyer of cloths. the difficulty in assessing the termites in this respect is that
> today's clothes and houses are different than the BH standard.
>
> in general, termites eat
cellulose: lumber, doors, furniture, cardboard, paper, wallpaper etc.
> but as garments used to be made from cotton and linen mostly, i imagine that they would
> destroy them too. to do this, they build thin tunnels along the house walls,
> until they find cellulose.
>
> http://laundry.about.com/od/laundrybasics/ss/Insects-That-Destroy-Clothes-Insect-Clothes-Pests_8.htm
>
> what they excel at is the other property you mentioned: building houses.
>
> nir cohen
>
> ps is ($ used in other semitic languages?
>
> On Thu, 20 Jun 2013 08:49:08 -0700, K Randolph wrote
> > Nir:
> >
> > On Thu, Jun 20, 2013 at 8:14 AM, Nir cohen - Prof. Mat. <nir AT ccet.ufrn.br> wrote:
> >
karl,
> >
> > >>>This is an animal that eats clothing Isaiah 50:9, and builds houses Job
> > 27:18. This description fits a caterpillar that becomes a moth.
> >
> > how about termites?
> >
> > nir cohen
> >
> >
> > I’ll have to admit that I never considered termites.
> >
> > 1) because the dictionaries I worked from all mentioned “moth” and caterpillars are immature moths (even in English we talk about “moth eaten” when in reality it’s the caterpillars, not the adult moths, that do the damage).
> >
> > 2) Do termites have a reputation for eating cloth? I haven’t heard of it.
> >
> > Karl W. Randolph.
>
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From: Uri Hurwitz <uhurwitz AT yahoo.com>
Date: June 22, 2013 5:24:51 PM CDT
To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: [b-hebrew] ($ (job 4:19)
John,
Yes, this root was discussed recently, and
I remember you suggested that the last consonant,
by doubling, could or would change into another.
Sorry, I am not convinced. Incidentally, the root
Het Waw He is nicely attested in the HB.
The last consonant in L"H/L"Y Hebrew roots
serves only as a vowel ,though exception will
occur such as in the Qal passive participle.
There is a reason why the final Ya in such verbs
in Arabic is known as Ya Maqs(.)urah.
Best,
Uri Hurwitz
Gabalun bigabalin la yaltakeh, wabnu adam bibni adam
yaltakeh
(A saying: mountain does not meet a mountain, a human
meets another human. I could never fathom this,
but it sounds good)
.... שחה in our recent discussion is a good case in point, where we can see where the one root transforms into - or is read as - another and a new root comes ino existence. ...
John Leake
________________________________
'inna SâHiba Hayâtin hanî'atin lâ yudawwinuhâ: 'innamâ, yaHyâhâ.
(He who lives a comfortable life doesn't write about it - he lives it.)
Tawfiq al-Hakim, Yawmiyyât Nâ'ib fil-'Aryâf.
From: "J. Leake" <jesleake AT yahoo.co.uk>
Date: June 22, 2013 6:33:03 PM CDT
To: Uri Hurwitz <uhurwitz AT yahoo.com>
Cc: "b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org" <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] ($ (job 4:19)
Reply-To: "J. Leake" <john.leake AT shikar.co.uk>
I don't really want to re-vitalize that discussion, Uri, but would say that the absence of other forms of חוה with any sense of praying (and the unique binyan) would be a factor that led to the root of השתחוה being redefined within the word, if that's what happened. Naturally, if השתחוה was originally of root חוה then חוה in that sense is very well attested indeed in both Hebrew and Ugaritic. AFAIK, the balance of opinion tends toward the hishtaph'el (and in some opinion consequent secondary formation of a root שוה), but I believe there is no strong consesus, so you're in good company. HALOT, however, even prefers to treat שחה as a
shaph'el of חוה, which looks less plausible to me. But until the speaker wants to derive a secondary verb from a verb like השתחוה, it doesn't matter to him in the slightest whether it's a hithpa'lel of חוה or a hishtaph'el of שחה. It's the fact you can't tell that makes the redefinition argument plausible.
John Leake
'inna SâHiba Hayâtin hanî'atin lâ yudawwinuhâ: 'innamâ, yaHyâhâ.
(He who lives a comfortable life doesn't write about it - he lives it.)
Tawfiq al-Hakim, Yawmiyyât Nâ'ib fil-'Aryâf.
From: To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Sunday, 23 June 2013, 0:24
Subject: [b-hebrew] ($ (job 4:19)
John, Yes, this root was discussed recently, and I remember you suggested that the last consonant, by doubling, could or would change into another. Sorry, I am not convinced. Incidentally, the root Het Waw He is nicely attested in the HB. The last consonant in L"H/L"Y Hebrew roots serves only as a vowel ,though exception will occur such as in the Qal passive participle. There is a reason why the final Ya in such verbs in Arabic is known as Ya Maqs(.)urah. Best, Uri Hurwitz Gabalun bigabalin la yaltakeh, wabnu adam bibni adam yaltakeh (A saying: mountain does not meet a mountain, a human meets another human. I could never fathom this, but it sounds good) .... שחה in our recent discussion is a good case in
point, where we can see where the one root transforms into - or is read as - another and a new root comes ino existence. ... John Leake ________________________________ 'inna SâHiba Hayâtin hanî'atin lâ yudawwinuhâ: 'innamâ, yaHyâhâ. (He who lives a comfortable life doesn't write about it - he lives it.) Tawfiq al-Hakim, Yawmiyyât Nâ'ib fil-'Aryâf. _______________________________________________ b-hebrew mailing list b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.orghttp://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew
From: Isaac Fried <if AT math.bu.edu>
Date: June 22, 2013 8:25:51 PM CDT
To: "Ishnian" <ishinan AT comcast.net>
Cc: B-Hebrew Hebrew <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] ($ (job 4:19)
We need no Arabic for this.
Ps.31:11(10) כי כלו ביגון חיי ושנותי באנחה כשל בעוני כחי ועצמי עששו KJV: "For my life is spent with grief, and my years with sighing: my strength faileth because of mine iniquity, and my bones are consumed"
Compare Ps. 22:15(14) כמים נשפכתי והתפרדו כל עצמותי היה לבי כדונג נמס בתוך מעי KJV: "I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels"
Isaac Fried, Boston University
On Jun 21, 2013, at 8:49 PM, Ishnian wrote: From: Nir cohen - Prof. Mat.arabic also has ($ = moth.
------------------------------------------------------------------- John Leake: Almost, Nir - Arabic has عثّ (root <ain><tha'><tha'>), a root certainly cognate to the Hebrew root עשש. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Ishinan:`thth: Primary sense in Arabic: "to eat, fret, devour, consume." 1- `thth a - A moth-worm ate it or fretted, namely a woollen cloths, the kind of worm or grub that eats / gnaws corn, skin, leather. b - Vipers devouring each others. c- Transferred sense, quick in consuming of wealth and property.
From: Isaac Fried <if AT math.bu.edu>
Date: June 22, 2013 8:51:54 PM CDT
To: "J. Leake" <john.leake AT shikar.co.uk>
Cc: B-Hebrew <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] ($ (job 4:19)
1. "Proto-Semitic" belongs to the realm of the legends.
2. The root עשש for עש is an invention by extension.
3. "Akkadian" is the language of beguiling, made-up, dictionaries. We should stick, methinks, to what we know, and what we can verify, first hand.
3. Appears to me that עש A$ is one of the family of words:
עד ED, Gen. 31:48 עז EZ, Lev. 17:3 עץ EC, Gen. 1:11 עש A$, Is. 51:8 עיט AYIT, Gen. 15:11 עיש AYI$, Iob 38:32 סס SAS, Is. 51:8 סוס SUS, Gen. 49:17 סיס SIYS, Jer. 8:7 זיז ZIYZ, Ps. 80:14(13) ציץ CIYC, Is. 40:6 איש IY$, Gen. 2:24 צי CIY, Is. 13:21 שה SEH, Gen. 30:32 תאו TO, Deut. 14:5 תיש TAYI$, Gen. 32:15
Isaac Fried, Boston University
On Jun 21, 2013, at 8:51 PM, J. Leake wrote: David, to help your search, be aware that the second/third root letter of עש 'aš - 'moth' - is from the proto-Semitic θ /th/ which becomes t in Aramaic, s in Ethiopic (and doubtless Amharic from there) and š in Canaanite and Akkadian. What a pleasing conceit that the moth should fall into the fire... Akkadian has ašašu according to CAD which appears in a lexical list with the common word for moth, sassu/sāsu, as a gloss. And Hebrew sasסס is a synonym for עש, isn't it? The case is looking strong for moth, isn't it!
From: Jonathan Mohler <jonathan.mohler AT gmail.com>
Date: June 22, 2013 10:08:36 PM CDT
To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] b-hebrew ($ (Job 4:19)
They probably used wood or trees to hold the stucco and/or plaster. If so, the termites would target the wood in the walls. However they could probably hold up for a while even if the wood was gone.
Jonathan Mohler
From: Jonathan Mohler <jonathan.mohler AT gmail.com>
Date: June 22, 2013 10:33:48 PM CDT
To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] b-hebrew Digest, Vol 126, Issue 40
Job says "mud house" Mud houses have been built this way since the dawn of history. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEbAHCZEUR0The wood (any soft wood) used in these houses is a termites favorite.
Jonathan Mohler. Re: [b-hebrew] ($ (job 4:19)
From: Jonathan Mohler <jonathan.mohler AT gmail.com>
Date: June 22, 2013 11:01:30 PM CDT
To: B-Hebrew Hebrew <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] ($ (job 4:19)
To me the circumstantial evidence is overwhelmingly in favor of a termite. 1)in v.19 the subject is a Mud House: -anyone one who has live around mud houses knows that termites devour the inside wood of the structure inside about three years. 2)in v.20 "Between morning and evening they are broken in pieces" and - mud houses often collapse in the middle of the night on unsuspecting victims. a common occurrence even today. - v.21 "Is not their tent-cord plucked up within them" parallels the imagery of a collapsing mud house.
3) the termites' bite is like fire, thus the probable origin of the name.
Jonathan Mohler
From: Isaac Fried <if AT math.bu.edu>
Date: June 23, 2013 10:17:37 AM CDT
To: Jonathan Mohler <jonathan.mohler AT gmail.com>
Cc: B-Hebrew Hebrew <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] ($ (job 4:19)
I see hints in the story of Job that it takes place in East Africa, lending support to the termite theory (kudos to the other math professor.)
Isaac Fried, Boston University
On Jun 23, 2013, at 12:01 AM, Jonathan Mohler wrote: To me the circumstantial evidence is overwhelmingly in favor of a termite.1)in v.19 the subject is a Mud House: -anyone one who has live around mud houses knows that termites devour the inside wood of the structure inside about three years. 2)in v.20 "Between morning and evening they are broken in pieces" and - mud houses often collapse in the middle of the night on unsuspecting victims. a common occurrence even today. - v.21 "Is not their tent-cord plucked up within them" parallels the imagery of a collapsing mud house.
3) the termites' bite is like fire, thus the probable origin of the name.
Jonathan Mohler
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