Biblical Hebrew Forum

["Robert D. Rachlin" <rrachlin AT drm.com>]

Oun Kwon asks about a "shalom" received for Passover on April 24th.  The 
likely explanation:  April 24th of this year was 14th of Iyar, the date of 
Pesach sheni, or "second Passover."  See 
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/PesachSheni.html  for a 
further explanation of this observance.

_______________________
Robert D. Rachlin
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Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 12:00
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Subject: b-hebrew Digest, Vol 124, Issue 33

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Sefer 'Iyyob and YHWH (Isaac Fried)
   2. Re: hieratic bible? (Will Parsons)
   3. ????? (Mike Burke)
   4. Passover was, or Passover is in 2013 (Oun Kwon)
   5. Re: Passover was, or Passover is in 2013 (Yodan)
   6.  Passover was, or Passover is in 2013 (Yigal Levin)
   7. Re: ????? (Yigal Levin)
   8. Re: ????? (Pere Porta)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2013 11:35:29 -0400
From: Isaac Fried <if AT math.bu.edu>
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Sefer 'Iyyob and YHWH
To: Yohanan bin-Dawidh <yohanan.bin.dawidh AT gmail.com>
Cc: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <84B43BAF-5EF7-42F3-8DFE-20CD59A91309 AT math.bu.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

All these are generic designations, from the uni-literal root L,
'up'. ADONAY ????? is from the root ADN, or it is the compound AD-
HU-HEN-HI.

Isaac Fried, Boston University

On Apr 23, 2013, at 4:19 PM, Yohanan bin-Dawidh wrote:

> The terms ?????, ???? and ??,

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Message: 2
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2013 22:26:27 -0400 (EDT)
From: Will Parsons <wbparsons AT alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] hieratic bible?
To: torythrp AT yahoo.com
Cc: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID:
        <20130424.222627.525573019873708783.wbparsons AT alum.mit.edu>
Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=utf-8

Hi Tory,

(Sorry for getting your name wrong in my previous response.)

Since this thread is shutting down, I'll try to pack as much as I can
into my one allowed reply...

On Wed, 24 Apr 2013 09:12:04 +0800 (SGT), Tory Thorpe <torythrp AT yahoo.com> 
wrote:
> Will:
>
> A Moses figure (real or not) would have been literate in
> Egyptian. We can at least put that question to rest.

As I wrote in my previous reply, I don't think it can be taken for granted
that even royalty were necessarily able to read and write in the complex
hieroglyphic/hieratic script.

> The question is what script and language would he use? What script
> would Asiatics from Egypt and always on the move use? I'm thinking a
> cursive script for fast transmission and recording of information on
> just about any medium available, i.e. stone, rocks, leather,
> limestone, ostraca, parchment, or whatever.

Yes, cursive is much easier to use with a variety of media than cuneiform is,
but the Egyptian writing system required a lot of study to master.

> You wrote: "So if Moses wrote in it, it would have been in Egyptian,
> which would be unintellible to non-Egyptian speaking Hebrews."
>
> They presumably were all capable of understanding and speaking
> Egyptian by the time of the Exodus even if only relatively few were
> literate.

I don't think we can presume that.  One can argue that:

o  The Israelites were in Egypt for an extended period of time, so of
   course they all learned to speak Egyptian.

o  It appears that the Israelites were pretty much located in a
   specific area and formed a cohesive enclave within Egypt, so they
   probably kept their language and only some them spoke Egyptian.

Which of these (or other) possibilities is closer to the mark is a
matter of speculation.  But if the Hebrews entered Canaan being
essentially Egyptian-speaking, and with an Egyptian-language torah,
there's a lot of explaining to be done...

> I do not see it as improbable the idea that hieratic was
> used to write some Hebrew words.

Writing "some Hebrew words" is a lot different than writing an extended
narrative.

> The Arabic script seems to have some connections to hieratic.

I don't think so.

> What I am saying is that a narrative composition in the 15th century
> BC, in the region of Egypt/Canaan is more likely to be in hieratic
> than anything else since the examples that survive are just that.

Examples of what?  Egyptian?  Are there any examples of any Canaanite
language written in hieratic?

> Even 1,000+ kilometers in Assyria and Babylonia, their narration,
> story telling, and even their year-names and annual limmu name
> recording were probably all written first on perishable mediums in a
> cursive script prior to being copied on non-perishable medium of
> clay tablets with a stylus.

Why probably?  Is there any evidence they did?  The very form of
cuneiform reflects the fact that it was developed using clay as a
medium.  They didn't have the supply of papyrus the Egyptians had, but
they had plenty of mud.

---

In a reply to Karl you wrote:

> Hieroglyphic is consonantal writing system (bi- and tri-consonants)
> with hieratic being a cursive and much faster way to do it. It can
> be used to "write" Hebrew easier than Akkadian cunieform -- which is
> where I jumped in to disagree with Jim. Hieratic is also just as
> easy to use as the method for writing Hebrew adopted on this
> b-hebrew list: i.e. ")" for aleph, "B" for beth, and "G" for gimel,
> and "$" for shin, etc. Hieratic writing is also much faster than
> carving or chiseling proto-Sinaitic or proto-Hebrew unto stone which
> takes time. Are there any examples of this other than the
> non-perishable types? So maybe the "ten commandments" were written
> this way on two tablets of stone in the non-cursive script, but not
> the larger Pentateuch in books which needed a cursive script, not if
> all of it was written down in the 15th century BCE and then copied
> and updated in the centuries that followed.

Any introductory book on Egyptian will show a hieroglypic "alphabet",
each of whose glyphs has a hieratic equivalent, so we have what could
have been used as a hieratic "alphabet".  But I've put "alphabet" in
quotes for a reason - these sets of symbols never (that I know) seem
to have been actually *used* as an alphabet, but only as part of a
script that also included more complex phonograms, logograms, and
determinatives.  A hieratic alphabet *could* have been used to
represent other languages, but assuming it *was* so used is pure
speculation.  (The Meroitic alphabet was derived from Egyptian
hieroglyphs, but that was much later than the period we're discussing,
and on the other side [South] of Egypt.)

--
Will Parsons
?? ?????????, ???' ?????.

------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2013 21:12:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mike Burke <michaelgburk AT yahoo.com>
Subject: [b-hebrew] ?????
To: "b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org" <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID:
        <1366863170.50313.YahooMailNeo AT web163101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Can ????? mean "apart from"

?
Michael Gerard Burke
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Message: 4
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 01:19:13 -0500
From: Oun Kwon <kwonbbl AT gmail.com>
Subject: [b-hebrew] Passover was, or Passover is in 2013
To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID:
        <CAMxoSSzQZBA_AtVfmbbRXHQ-cpggJ5ug5Ms-MXZPsVsxET1qGw AT mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

I thought we had the Passover last month (March 24 - Nisan 14)

I got a shalom from someone who says he is keeping Passover today. (Apr 24
- 25)

(Ref. www.yhrim.com/5995_GMT.pdf or www.yhrim.com/5995_EST.pdf )

It must be something to do with how a Hebrew calendar ddetermines the 1st
day of the lunar month and when the new year begins with Nisan 1 (not
Tishri) in a Hebrew calendar.

Please forgive and ignore if this is out of bound of the list and kindly
give me some help to solve off list. I don't see any other place who may
have answers related to Hebrew and O.T.

Oun Kwon
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Message: 5
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2013 23:37:11 -0700
From: "Yodan" <yodan AT yodanco.com>
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Passover was, or Passover is in 2013
To: "'Oun Kwon'" <kwonbbl AT gmail.com>,   <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <5512E2C1D216424BAAA81CA33411A7B2@RivkaNewSonyPC>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pesach_Sheni



The link explains the celebration of "second Passover" exactly a month after
the main festival is celebrated.



Yodan





  _____

From: b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org
[mailto:b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Oun Kwon
Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2013 11:19 PM
To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: [b-hebrew] Passover was, or Passover is in 2013



I thought we had the Passover last month (March 24 - Nisan 14)

I got a shalom from someone who says he is keeping Passover today. (Apr 24 -
25)

(Ref. www.yhrim.com/5995_GMT.pdf or www.yhrim.com/5995_EST.pdf )



It must be something to do with how a Hebrew calendar ddetermines the 1st
day of the lunar month and when the new year begins with Nisan 1 (not
Tishri) in a Hebrew calendar.


Please forgive and ignore if this is out of bound of the list and kindly
give me some help to solve off list. I don't see any other place who may
have answers related to Hebrew and O.T.

Oun Kwon




<https://app.yesware.com/t/4b2b85b3dd5e5b8df7fc912598180d040a1b24c4/b8b48824
bfaebb06effb1b67e24896e4/spacer.gif>
<http://app.yesware.com/t/4b2b85b3dd5e5b8df7fc912598180d040a1b24c4/b8b48824b
faebb06effb1b67e24896e4/spacer.gif>

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Message: 6
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 11:57:06 +0300
From: Yigal Levin <Yigal.Levin AT biu.ac.il>
Subject: [b-hebrew]  Passover was, or Passover is in 2013
To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <004a01ce4192$dd20fb80$9762f280$%Levin AT biu.ac.il>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Yodan, full name please.



Oun, the person who greeted you may have been a Samaritan. The Samaritans
had a "leap year" (adding a month of Adar) two years ago while the Jews did
not, so the Jewish calendar is a month ahead of the Samaritan calendar.
Indeed, the Samaritans held their Passover sacrifice on Monday night and are
now in the middle of the Feast of Unleaavened Bread. See
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SC1XRB06tr4 for a previous year's sacrifice.
The two calendars will coincide again next year.



Yigal Levin



From: b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org
[mailto:b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Yodan
Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 9:37 AM
To: 'Oun Kwon'; b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Passover was, or Passover is in 2013



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pesach_Sheni



The link explains the celebration of "second Passover" exactly a month after
the main festival is celebrated.



Yodan





  _____

From: b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org
[mailto:b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Oun Kwon
Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2013 11:19 PM
To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: [b-hebrew] Passover was, or Passover is in 2013



I thought we had the Passover last month (March 24 - Nisan 14)

I got a shalom from someone who says he is keeping Passover today. (Apr 24 -
25)

(Ref. www.yhrim.com/5995_GMT.pdf or www.yhrim.com/5995_EST.pdf )



It must be something to do with how a Hebrew calendar ddetermines the 1st
day of the lunar month and when the new year begins with Nisan 1 (not
Tishri) in a Hebrew calendar.


Please forgive and ignore if this is out of bound of the list and kindly
give me some help to solve off list. I don't see any other place who may
have answers related to Hebrew and O.T.

Oun Kwon




<https://app.yesware.com/t/4b2b85b3dd5e5b8df7fc912598180d040a1b24c4/b8b48824
bfaebb06effb1b67e24896e4/spacer.gif>
<http://app.yesware.com/t/4b2b85b3dd5e5b8df7fc912598180d040a1b24c4/b8b48824b
faebb06effb1b67e24896e4/spacer.gif>

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Message: 7
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 12:01:48 +0300
From: Yigal Levin <Yigal.Levin AT biu.ac.il>
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] ?????
To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <005a01ce4193$850db8b0$8f292a10$%Levin AT biu.ac.il>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Mike, it would be easier to answer your questions if you gave us the context.



Yigal Levin



From: b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org 
[mailto:b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Mike Burke
Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 7:13 AM
To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: [b-hebrew] ?????



Can ????? mean "apart from"



Michael Gerard Burke

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Message: 8
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 12:57:50 +0200
From: Pere Porta <pporta7 AT gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] ?????
To: Yigal Levin <Yigal.Levin AT biu.ac.il>
Cc: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID:
        <CAN2C6qmXx08+uffuWwbm1Bev+bnao4yXJYdA1_0VB6vTmyRjow AT mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Indeed, Mike.
As Yigal says, the word as you're writing it, rather means "felts", the
plural of "leved", "felt".

Firendly,

Pere Porta
(Barcelona, Catalonia, Northeastern Spain)

2013/4/25 Yigal Levin <Yigal.Levin AT biu.ac.il>

>  Mike, it would be easier to answer your questions if you gave us the
> context.****
>
> ** **
>
> Yigal Levin****
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:
> b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org] *On Behalf Of *Mike Burke
> *Sent:* Thursday, April 25, 2013 7:13 AM
> *To:* b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
> *Subject:* [b-hebrew] ?????****
>
> ** **
>
> Can ????? mean "apart from"****
>
>  ****
>
> Michael Gerard Burke****
>
> _______________________________________________
> b-hebrew mailing list
> b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew
>
>


--
Pere Porta
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