Biblical Hebrew Forum

[Daniel Lundsgaard Skovenborg <waldeinburg AT yahoo.com>]

Hi John,

As for software (@2), Ari Kinsberg from the list used "bar ilan's mikra'ot 
gedolot ha-keter" for answering a question on accents last year:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torah_database#Mikra.27ot_Gedolot_Haketer
http://www.biupress.co.il/website_en/index.asp?id=447
http://jtslibrarytakeaway.blogspot.com/2010/06/new-resource-mikraot-gedolot-haketer-on.html
I don't know much about it, but it seems to have an innovative and user 
friendly search function for morphological details.


If you are a tech guy without money you may use Regular Expressions 
(http://www.regular-expressions.info) to search for patterns in Westminster 
Leningrad Codex (http://www.tanach.us) or BDB 
(https://github.com/openscriptures/HebrewLexicon).


Regards,
Daniel Lundsgaard Skovenborg



----- Original Message -----
> From: John C.P. Smith <jcpsmith AT talk21.com>
> To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
> Cc: 
> Sent: Friday, June 15, 2012 10:14 PM
> Subject: [b-hebrew] Tevel
> 
> Shalom!
> 
> 
> 
> I am a new member of the B-Hebrew list. I hold a BA Hons degree in Hebrew
> and Jewish History from University College London (1989-1993). I have taught
> introductory–intermediate Biblical and Modern Hebrew. I write and teach
> Hebrew word-studies, using BibleWorks 7 for my research.
> 
> 
> 
> Currently, in preparing an article on erets and tevel, with reference to
> tevel I searched the internet for “tsere tsere vowel patterns” and came
> across some correspondence on B-Hebrew last year (see below).
> 
> 
> 
> I have a few questions:
> 
> 1)     Apart from tevel (36 occurrences in the Hebrew Bible), cheresh (9
> occurrences), and Tevet (Esther 2:16), do you know of any other Biblical
> Hebrew words (or even Modern Hebrew words) with the tsere-tsere vowel
> pattern?
> 
> 
> 
> 2)     As a matter of interest, do you know of a program for searching on
> vowel patterns (without consonants)? Or do I need to just manually read
> through word lists?
> 
> 
> 
> 3)     Tevel only ever occurs without the definite article. Is this unique?
> Do you know of any other common nouns like this?
> 
> 
> 
> 4)     What would you expect the construct state pattern to be for a
> tsere-tsere noun? It’s not possible to compare with the other above Biblical
> examples, since cheresh is an adjective and Tevet is a proper noun.
> Personally, I would expect the first tsere to reduce to a voiced sheva,
> hence, t'vel. Would you agree?
> 
> 
> 
> 5)     Out of the 36 occurrences of tevel in the Bible, BibleWorks
> identifies 3 as being in the construct state, Psalm 98:7 and 9 (both of
> which appear to be erroneously labelled), and Proverbs 8:31 (literally,
> "Rejoicing in tevel His erets. . .") which seems to me more likely to 
> be in
> the absolute state. In addition to Proverbs 8:31, F. Brown (The New
> Brown–Driver–Briggs–Gesenius Hebrew and English Lexicon, Peabody,
> Massachusetts: Hendrickson Publishers, Inc., 1979) cites just one further
> example of tevel in the construct state (p. 385): Job 37:12 (literally, ". 
> .
> . upon [the] face of tevel towards erets") which again seems to me more
> likely to be in the absolute state. In other words, as far as I can tell
> tevel doesn’t actually occur in the construct state. Would you agree?
> 
> 
> 
> 6)     Nir Cohen says that tevel has “an astronomical connotation”. What do
> you mean by this?
> 
> 
> 
> 7)     Putting all of this evidence together, if confirmed by your answers
> it seems to me that tevel is actually a proper noun (and not a common noun,
> as it is usually listed in lexicons)—a poetic name for earth, in much the
> same way in which we name the planets in the solar system, e.g. Jupiter and
> Venus. Do you think that this is a possibility? Is so, do you know of any
> other supporting evidence?
> 
> 
> 
> I would be extremely grateful for any response you are able to give, even a
> brief one if you are busy.
> 
> 
> 
> Yours most sincerely,
> 
> 
> 
> John
> 
> 
> 
> John C.P. Smith
> 
> BA Hons, Hebrew and Jewish History (University College London, 1993)
> 
> United Kingdom
> 
> 
> 
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
> 
> 
> 
> Nir,
> 
> I'm focusing my attention onto this word kind and not onto words with
> segol-segol.
> 
> Concerning nouns with tsere-tsere --------> there are more than those you
> say. And so, XR$, deaf (Ex 4:11) and other that are not found in the Bible.
> 
> Now, nouns with tsere-segol I found recently the complete list of this noun
> type -no matter they appear in the bible or not-. This list consists of
> around 60 nouns and these are the ONLY to fit this vowel pattern within the
> whole of the Hebrew language.
> 
> But I intended to find an answer to this question: is there a common
> denominator to these 60 nouns?
> 
> As I wrote in a preceding post, I am ready to send that list to those who
> are interested in the issue (preferably by private mail, unless moderators
> of this forum think that it can be of a general interest for the list
> members)
> 
> Regards
> 
> Pere Porta
> (Barcelona, Catalonia, Spain)
> 
> 2011/5/3 Nir cohen - Prof. Mat. <nir at ccet.ufrn.br
> <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew> >
> 
>>  dear pere,
>> 
>>  the type of questions you have been asking relate to post-masoretic
> hebrew,
>>  i.e. involves shoresh AND niqud. there is nothing wrong with this, except
>>  (as is becoming clear (for me) from recent correspondence) you are
>>  considering
>>  a dialect consolidated over a very long time. so, i dont know
>>  if you can expect very clear-cut answers or a single logic behind the
>>  words.
>> 
>>  my best shot is this: words with cere-segol are true nouns derived from
>>  verbs, and allow the plural. they contain all 3 letters of a recognized
>>  hebrew root. and stress on the 1st syllable
>> 
>>  the small set of words with cere-cere may have originated from other word
>>  constructions which do not allow the plural: teveth (the name of a month),
>>  and
>>  tevel (there is only one...). they do not coincide with the three
>>  letters of a recognized hebrew root (unless the late TBL=spice is included
>>  as a root; even there, hebrew makes an exception and calls it TAVLIYN).
>>  and stress on the second syllable.
>> 
>>  what these alleged "other constructions" were, i cannot imagine. 
> as i
>>  fail to see agriculture in the semitic (lunar!) months, i can only
>>  imagine TEVETH to have an astronomical connotation - by the way,
>>  so does TEVEL...
>> 
>>  i also wonder why you consider those and not, for example, segol-segol.
>> 
>>  best
>>  nir cohen
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>  >>>> De: Pere Porta <pporta7 at gmail.com
> <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew> >
>>  Cópia: Hebrew <b-hebrew at lists.ibiblio.org
> <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew> >
>>  Para: Randall Buth <randallbuth at gmail.com
> <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew> >
>>  Data: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 19:05:21 +0200
>>  Assunto: Re: [b-hebrew] Tevel vs Evel
>>  Dear b-hebrew listees,
>>  I'm doing a comparison between several noun types in order to make some
>>  systematization of their patterns.
>>  I find nouns consisting of three root letters with tsere in the first and
>>  tsere in the second.
>>  And so, TBL, world (Ps 19:5) or TB+, Tebeth (a month of the year) (Est
>>  2:16)
>>  And I find nouns consisting of three root letters with tsere in the first
>>  but with segol in the second:
>>  )BL, mourning (2Sa 14:2)
>>  SFR, book (2Sa 1:18)
>>  $B+, tribe (Gn 49:10)
>>  Can anyone provide a good reason of this different pattern?
>>  I mean: not *"the Hebrew language is like this*", but, so to say, 
> an
>>  "internal" reason.
>>  --Have nouns tsere-tsere a feature common to all them?
>>  --Have nouns tsere-segol a feature common to all them, a common
>>  denominator?
>>  --Could we, given this and this and this root consonants, know in advance
>>  which pattern (tsere-tsere or tsere-segol) the resulting noun would fit if
>>  both vowel sounds are to be 'e'?
>>  Friendly,
>>  Pere Porta
>>  (Barcelona, Catalonia, Spain)
>> 
>>  _______________________________________________
>>  b-hebrew mailing list
>>  b-hebrew at lists.ibiblio.org
> <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew> 
>>  http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Pere Porta
> 
>             
> 
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