Biblical Hebrew Forum

[Pere Porta <pporta7 AT gmail.com>]

>
> (John)



> 1)     Apart from tevel (36 occurrences in the Hebrew Bible), cheresh (9
> occurrences), and Tevet (Esther 2:16), do you know of any other Biblical
> Hebrew words (or even Modern Hebrew words) with the tsere-tsere vowel
> pattern?
>
> (Pere)



> --I know "geresh", apostrophe (')  and "se(ef", inconstant (adjective).
> And in addition, the (simplest) Pi'el forms as "berekh" (Ps 10:3) and some
> others (maybe not in the Bible, but common in today Hebrew).


-------------------


> (John)
>
> 2)     As a matter of interest, do you know of a program for searching on
> vowel patterns (without consonants)? Or do I need to just manually read
> through word lists?
>
> (Pere)


Look at Oham.
For two consonant patterns: http://www.oham.net/out/N-d/N-d.html
For three consonant patterns: http://www.oham.net/out/N-t/N-t.html

------------
(John)

>
> 3)     Tevel only ever occurs without the definite article. Is this unique?
> Do you know of any other common nouns like this?
>


> (Pere)
>
> I suspect there are a few others. I don't know which they are.

--------------

> (John)
> 4)     What would you expect the construct state pattern to be for a
> tsere-tsere noun? It’s not possible to compare with the other above
> Biblical
> examples, since cheresh is an adjective and Tevet is a proper noun.
> Personally, I would expect the first tsere to reduce to a voiced sheva,
> hence, t'vel. Would you agree?
>
> (Pere)

No, the first tsere remains in the construct. The second tsere changes to
segol (with gutturals, to patah).


> --------------
>

(John)

>
> 5)     Out of the 36 occurrences of tevel in the Bible, BibleWorks
> identifies 3 as being in the construct state, Psalm 98:7 and 9 (both of
> which appear to be erroneously labelled), and Proverbs 8:31 (literally,
> "Rejoicing in tevel His erets. . .") which seems to me more likely to be in
> the absolute state. In addition to Proverbs 8:31, F. Brown (The New
> Brown–Driver–Briggs–Gesenius Hebrew and English Lexicon, Peabody,
> Massachusetts: Hendrickson Publishers, Inc., 1979) cites just one further
> example of tevel in the construct state (p. 385): Job 37:12 (literally, ".
> .
> . upon [the] face of tevel towards erets") which again seems to me more
> likely to be in the absolute state. In other words, as far as I can tell
> tevel doesn’t actually occur in the construct state. Would you agree?
>
> (Pere)
>
Yes, "tevel" is in the absolute and not in the construct in Job 37:12.
BW has mended (in version BW9) some of these mistakes (or maybe all)

----------------
(John)

> 6)     Nir Cohen says that tevel has “an astronomical connotation”. What do
> you mean by this?
>
> (Pere)
>

Let us expect Nir's post.

——————

(John)

>
> 7)     Putting all of this evidence together, if confirmed by your answers
> it seems to me that tevel is actually a proper noun (and not a common noun,
> as it is usually listed in lexicons)—a poetic name for earth, in much the
> same way in which we name the planets in the solar system, e.g. Jupiter and
> Venus. Do you think that this is a possibility? Is so, do you know of any
> other supporting evidence?
>
> (Pere)
>

Yes. I think "tevel" rather concerns (maybe not in every verse where it
appears) to the "world", we would say today "the planet Earth". But I do
not know if it is used as a proper noun.

———————

(John)

> I would be extremely grateful for any response you are able to give, even a
> brief one if you are busy.
>

(Pere)

I'm very satisfied with this b-hebrew forum even if it is not perfect (as
every human thing is not perfect...)


Pere Porta
(Barcelona, Catalonia, Northeastern Spain)



> John C.P. Smith
>
> BA Hons, Hebrew and Jewish History (University College London, 1993)
>
> United Kingdom
>
>
>
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
>
>
>
> Nir,
>
> I'm focusing my attention onto this word kind and not onto words with
> segol-segol.
>
> Concerning nouns with tsere-tsere --------> there are more than those you
> say. And so, XR$, deaf (Ex 4:11) and other that are not found in the Bible.
>
> Now, nouns with tsere-segol I found recently the complete list of this noun
> type -no matter they appear in the bible or not-. This list consists of
> around 60 nouns and these are the ONLY to fit this vowel pattern within the
> whole of the Hebrew language.
>
> But I intended to find an answer to this question: is there a common
> denominator to these 60 nouns?
>
> As I wrote in a preceding post, I am ready to send that list to those who
> are interested in the issue (preferably by private mail, unless moderators
> of this forum think that it can be of a general interest for the list
> members)
>
> Regards
>
> Pere Porta
> (Barcelona, Catalonia, Spain)
>
> 2011/5/3 Nir cohen - Prof. Mat. <nir at ccet.ufrn.br
> <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew> >
>
> > dear pere,
> >
> > the type of questions you have been asking relate to post-masoretic
> hebrew,
> > i.e. involves shoresh AND niqud. there is nothing wrong with this, except
> > (as is becoming clear (for me) from recent correspondence) you are
> > considering
> > a dialect consolidated over a very long time. so, i dont know
> > if you can expect very clear-cut answers or a single logic behind the
> > words.
> >
> > my best shot is this: words with cere-segol are true nouns derived from
> > verbs, and allow the plural. they contain all 3 letters of a recognized
> > hebrew root. and stress on the 1st syllable
> >
> > the small set of words with cere-cere may have originated from other word
> > constructions which do not allow the plural: teveth (the name of a
> month),
> > and
> > tevel (there is only one...). they do not coincide with the three
> > letters of a recognized hebrew root (unless the late TBL=spice is
> included
> > as a root; even there, hebrew makes an exception and calls it TAVLIYN).
> > and stress on the second syllable.
> >
> > what these alleged "other constructions" were, i cannot imagine. as i
> > fail to see agriculture in the semitic (lunar!) months, i can only
> > imagine TEVETH to have an astronomical connotation - by the way,
> > so does TEVEL...
> >
> > i also wonder why you consider those and not, for example, segol-segol.
> >
> > best
> > nir cohen
> >
> >
> >
> > >>>> De: Pere Porta <pporta7 at gmail.com
> <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew> >
> > Cópia: Hebrew <b-hebrew at lists.ibiblio.org
> <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew> >
> > Para: Randall Buth <randallbuth at gmail.com
> <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew> >
> > Data: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 19:05:21 +0200
> > Assunto: Re: [b-hebrew] Tevel vs Evel
> > Dear b-hebrew listees,
> > I'm doing a comparison between several noun types in order to make some
> > systematization of their patterns.
> > I find nouns consisting of three root letters with tsere in the first and
> > tsere in the second.
> > And so, TBL, world (Ps 19:5) or TB+, Tebeth (a month of the year) (Est
> > 2:16)
> > And I find nouns consisting of three root letters with tsere in the first
> > but with segol in the second:
> > )BL, mourning (2Sa 14:2)
> > SFR, book (2Sa 1:18)
> > $B+, tribe (Gn 49:10)
> > Can anyone provide a good reason of this different pattern?
> > I mean: not *"the Hebrew language is like this*", but, so to say, an
> > "internal" reason.
> > --Have nouns tsere-tsere a feature common to all them?
> > --Have nouns tsere-segol a feature common to all them, a common
> > denominator?
> > --Could we, given this and this and this root consonants, know in advance
> > which pattern (tsere-tsere or tsere-segol) the resulting noun would fit
> if
> > both vowel sounds are to be 'e'?
> > Friendly,
> > Pere Porta
> > (Barcelona, Catalonia, Spain)
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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> >
>
>
>
> --
> Pere Porta
>
>
>
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-- 
Pere Porta