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  • From: Uri Hurwitz <uhurwitz AT yahoo.com>
  • To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
  • Subject: [b-hebrew] Modern Pronounciation - not related to the BH list
  • Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 10:03:52 -0800 (PST)






      Isaaxc Fried wrote:>>1. Of course it is rashi; roshi is 'my head'.
>>  But compare 'Yomi' to 'daily' or 'my head',- same pronounciation,and the
>>vowel has notchanged from 'Yom'. >> 2. There is no such thing as a qamatz
>>qatan or qamatz gadol>> --  The Masoretes (= vocalizers, Naqdanim)
>>distinguishedbetween long and short vowels, following established Semitic
>>practice, and noticed other phonetic features which disappeared in the
>>modern language. We've been through this before. 

>>---the NIKUD was not given to Moses on mount Sinai
>> No, but people talked with each other even in his time.  Uri
>> Hurwitz >>Isaac Fried, Boston University
>>


>From if AT math.bu.edu Sun Jan 22 18:11:43 2012
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From: Isaac Fried <if AT math.bu.edu>
Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 17:51:13 -0500
To: Uri Hurwitz <uhurwitz AT yahoo.com>
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Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Modern Pronounciation - not related to the BH list
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1. We don't know who the NAKDANIYM were and what they exactly meant
by by their different NIKUD signs. "long" and "short" vowels, as well
as "Semitic practices" belong in my opinion in the department of
legends and dreams. There is no evidence that different NIKUD
markings were designed for different sounds, or that the same marking
could indicate different sounds.
What Wikipedia says about the qamatz is in my opinion no more than
the pipe dreams of some "eminent Semitists".

2. As we (I and my friends) speak today we make no distinction
between the qamatz, the patax and the xataphim, and the Hebrew
language functions perfectly well this way. But, sometimes we prefer
to override the NIKUD for the sake of clarity, for instance, we say
XOD$YI חָדְשִי for 'montly' in order to bring it closer to XODE
$, 'month', and to take it further away from XADA$, 'new'. We say
NOHALEI נָהֳלֵי (but not NOHOLEI as the "experts" would like us
to say) to bring it closer to NOHAL, 'procedure'. On the other hand,
we say CAHARAYIM and CAHALAH צָהֳלָה and not COHOLAH as the
"experts" would like us to say. And all this with to reference to
these sons of the wind, the qamatz qatan and qamatz gadol.

3. If someone prefers to say COHOLAH, at the risk of sounding funny,
it is his choice to make.

4. Concerning CARPAT, 'France', that some yokels pronounce CORPAT
(with the stress on the O), I see on the internet this goofy
"explanation" by a notorious "expert":

אז אם יש הברה סגורה לא מוטעמת שמנוקדת
בקמץ - רוב הסיכויים שזה קמץ קטן.

איך יודעים שב-"צרפת" ההברה פתוחה? הרי
לפי איך שאנחנו מבטאים, ה-ר' סוגרת את
ההברה.

אילו הייתה ההברה סגורה, היינו צריכים
לבטא צרפּת עם דגש ב-פ'. לפי ה-פ' הלא
דגושה, אפשר לדעת שהשווא ב-ר' הוא שווא
נע, ולכן הוא פותח את ההברה הבאה.

5. The schwa is another story.

Isaac Fried, Boston University

On Jan 22, 2012, at 1:03 PM, Uri Hurwitz wrote:

> Isaaxc Fried wrote:>>1. Of course it is rashi; roshi is 'my
> head'.
>>> But compare 'Yomi' to 'daily' or 'my head',- same
>>> pronounciation,and the vowel has notchanged from 'Yom'. >> 2.
>>> There is no such thing as a qamatz qatan or qamatz gadol>> --
>>> The Masoretes (= vocalizers, Naqdanim) distinguishedbetween long
>>> and short vowels, following established Semitic practice, and
>>> noticed other phonetic features which disappeared in the modern
>>> language. We've been through this before.
>
>>> ---the NIKUD was not given to Moses on mount Sinai
>>> No, but people talked with each other even in his time.
>>> Uri Hurwitz >>Isaac Fried, Boston University
>>>
>
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> b-hebrew mailing list
> b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew




  • [b-hebrew] Modern Pronounciation - not related to the BH list, Uri Hurwitz, 01/22/2012

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