Biblical Hebrew Forum

[David Steinberg <david.l.steinberg AT rogers.com>]

It is a very good piece of research. At my request, Ms Vern sent me a 
copy. However, without her OK, of course, I cannot share the text with 
others.

All the best

David Steinberg

On 25/11/2011 1:38 PM, Bryant J. Williams III wrote:
> Dear David,
>
> Do you have a link to Robyn Vern's dissertation? I have seen various 
> references
> to it in google, bing, yahoo, etc., searches, but have not located it.
>
> Rev. Bryant J. Williams III
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David Steinberg"<david.l.steinberg AT rogers.com>
> To:<b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 7:26 AM
> Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Early and late biblical Hebrew
>
>
> > Yes I agree with him. I suggest that you read his more extensive works -
> >
> > Young, Ian,- /Diversity in Pre-Exilic Hebrew,/ Forschungen zum Alten
> > Testament, Coronet Books Inc, 1993, ISBN-10: 3161460588
> >
> > - Biblical Hebrew: /Studies in Chronology and Typology/ (Journal for the
> > Study of the Old Testament Supplement), T.&  T. Clark Publishers, 2004,
> > ISBN-10: 0826468411
> >
> > Young, Ian, Robert Rezetko, Martin Ehrensvärd. /Linguistic Dating of
> > Biblical Texts: Volume 1 - An Introduction to Approaches and
> > Problems/(BibleWorld) (Paperback), Equinox Publishing (October 2008),
> > ISBN-10: 1845530829; Volume 2 - A New Synthesis and a Comprehensive
> > Bibliography
> >
> > Three works that I suggest that you read carefully are:
> >
> > Van Seters, John (1975) - /Abraham in History and Tradition/
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_in_History_and_Tradition#CITEREFVan_Seters1975
> > Thomas L. Thompson - /The Historicity of the Patriarchal Narratives/
> > (Walter de Gruyter, Berlin/New York, 1974). Read the section on names.
> >
> > Redford, Donald B. (1970) - /A Study of the Biblical Story of Joseph/.
> > Leiden, The Netherlands: E.J. Brill.
> >
> > We can assume that biblical prose "historic" texts such as /Samuel,
> > Kings/ etc. may have been read by literate scribes. Even these were
> > clearly modernized. A careful read of Polzin is worth the effort -
> > Polzin, Robert, /Late Biblical Hebrew: Toward an Historical Typology of
> > Biblical Hebrew Prose/.  (Scholars Press 1976. This isdiscussed in Vern,
> > Robyn, "The Relevance of Linguistic Evidence to the Early Dating of the
> > Archaic Poetry of the Hebrew Bible", PhD dissertation, University of
> > Sydney, 2008.). Polzin carefully examines the changes in language
> > between /Samuel-Kings/ and the parallel passages in /Chronicles/.
> >
> > One has to accept that most of the literature of the Hebrew Bible was
> > meant to be comprehended read or recited aloud by a basically illiterate
> > audience in the period of say 800-400 BCE ( see van der Toorn, Karel.
> > /Scribal Culture and the Making of the Hebrew Bible/, Harvard University
> > Press, 2009 - worth a careful read).The audience would no more have
> > understood the language of 1400 -1200 BCE (case, mood, and other short
> > vowel endings, the existence of final /y/ and /w/ which were lost in
> > later Hebrew consequent on thedisappearance of final short vowels,
> > differences in syntax) than a modern audience, not specifically trained
> > in Middle English, would understand a recitation of Chaucer. On the
> > other hand, a sprinkling ofstandard archaisms in the "archaic poetry"
> > would present no more difficulties in comprehension that the scattering
> > of "thous", "thys" and "beholds" etc in a 19th century English love
> > poem. (See /Time and Modal Implications of PC in Various Categories of
> > BH Poetry/ http://www.adath-shalom.ca/history_of_hebrew3a.htm#time_mod_pc )
> >
> > As far as dating by names go, I have already mentioned the cases of the
> > Iliad and the Nibelungenlied both of which contain ancient names and
> > originated in known historical events. In both cases they were written
> > down much later and neither contains much of the historical events in
> > any recognizable form.
> >
> > The fact that St. George might really have been a third-fourth century
> > Roman soldier says nothing about the historicity or date of composition
> > of the St. George literature that has come down to us.
> >
> > The fundamental situation is that we would all like to prove the date of
> > various pieces of the biblical text and, in most cases, be able to
> > demonstrate that the biblical Abraham, Moses etc. lived and did what
> > they are described as doing in the text. However, archaeology, critical
> > studies of history etc. contradict such naive readings of the text. The
> > linguistic evidence, which Avi Hurvitz (see
> > http://www.houseofdavid.ca/anc_heb_6.htm#_edn6 ), Cross etc. considered
> > objective indicators of date have turned out to be invalid ( see
> > http://www.houseofdavid.ca/anc_heb_6.htm#ident_prex ).
> >
> > In my view we simply have to accept that we cannot linguistically date
> > the material and not to continue to grab at straws.
> >
> > David Steinberg
> >
> > 1. The material I discuss and reference in the box Can Biblical Texts be
> > Linguistically Dated? http://www.houseofdavid.ca/anc_heb_6.htm
> >
> > 2. Vern, Robyn, "The Relevance of Linguistic Evidence to the Early
> > Dating of the Archaic Poetry of the Hebrew Bible", PhD dissertation,
> > University of Sydney, 2008.
> >
> >    If you look at the text of any of the so called archaic poems, and you
> > revert it to its probable form c. 1200-1400 BCE (add case, mood, and
> > other short vowel endings, revert contractions of final /y/ and /w/
> > consequent on the disapearance of final short vowels etc.) you will find
> > that the orthography is not really archaic and, in many cases, such as
> > the use of matres - is often typologically late.