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  • From: Kevin Riley <klriley AT alphalink.com.au>
  • To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
  • Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Mishnaic Hebrew
  • Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2011 09:13:40 +1100

Karl

Have you considered that reduction in the 'richness' of a language comes not only when a language is no longer spoken 'natively', but also where it is in reduced circumstances. There are many examples that could be chosen, but perhaps a more familiar example is that of the Celtic languages. It is not only in areas where Irish (for example) became a second language that it's vocabulary and syntax became simplified, but also in areas where it remained the main language. You can still today find children who before going to school have a very poor command of English and can function fluently in Irish. But their Irish is not as rich, and never will be unless they actively work on it, as that of Irish speakers 3 or 4 centuries ago. The results you see as indicating Hebrew is a 'learnt' language could just as easily indicate that Hebrew is no longer the language for all activities, but could still be spoken by the majority of the population as their native language. It was the loss of the literary classes to English that impoverished Irish. Not even that the nobility and scholars ceased to speak Irish, simply that most moved the high level language activities to English. In other words, you had a situation of diglossia. Irish remained in many areas the first language a child learnt, and continued as the language in which they conducted most of everyday life, but literature and formal occasions called for English. I think that fits better the stories of Rabbis getting the meaning of rare Hebrew words from servants. The 'upper classes' are likely to live more of their lives in situations calling for the 'high' language, whereas the lower classes spend a much greater proportion of their lives using the 'low' language. I can no more prove this situation existed than you can your theory, but it is worth considering whether there are other scenarios apart from the one you favour that can explain the data just as well - or even better.

Kevin Riley

On 24/11/2011 8:27 AM, K Randolph wrote:
Chavoux:

On Wed, Nov 23, 2011 at 12:54 PM, Chavoux Luyt<chavoux AT gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Karl

You wrote:



We find the statement in Nehemiah 13:24 that the mixed marriages resulted
in children who did not understand Hebrew. That would not have been
necessary if this had been a Hebrew speaking milieu—even if the children
spoke the other languages at home, they would pick up Hebrew at a young
age
from the street. But this does become an issue in an Aramaic speaking
milieu where the women from mixed marriages taught their children their
native tongues at home, possibly as a second language, where speaking
Hebrew was something to be taught as a second language, necessary because
of its religious and civic uses (similar to medieval Latin).
I must say that I doubt it that a language (and its pronunciation)
could disappear in a single generation.

The Babylonian Exile itself lasted over two generations, and the events
listed in both Nehemiah and Ezra were a few generations after that. I think
Nehemiah opens in 417 BC and Ezra slightly after that.

Those who have worked with immigrants and their children find that the
children generally have but a smattering of their parents’ languages, the
grandchildren almost none, unless the language is systematically taught as
a second language. In the latter case, the children’s primary language that
they speak in their everyday usage is the language of their milieu, their
ancestors’ language the second language.


Yes some of the mixed children
could not understand Hebrew. But there certainly must have been enough
native speakers of Hebrew to keep the language alive (there were still
some old men alive who remembered the first temple!), especially in
Israel itself among the returnees.

See above.




Shalom
Chavoux Luyt


Karl W. Randolph.
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