Biblical Hebrew Forum

[sugiyarto Kristian <kristiansugiyarto AT yahoo.com>]

Dear brother in Christ
"El" as "the chief of God' does not neccessarily to be a proper noun/name. 
Consider in militay system. "General" is the highest position compare to 
Leutnan, Major,  and so on, but no doubt "General" is a common noun. Thus in 
the case of 'El" found in archeology we should need much more data how many 
words of El were treated in that. In Tanakh, El is absolutely common noun. 
There is no way one word can be both common and proper noun. Kristian H. 
Sugiyarto
Indonesia

--- On Sat, 6/8/11, b-hebrew-request AT lists.ibiblio.org 
<b-hebrew-request AT lists.ibiblio.org> wrote:


From: b-hebrew-request AT lists.ibiblio.org <b-hebrew-request AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: b-hebrew Digest, Vol 104, Issue 3
To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Received: Saturday, 6 August, 2011, 11:00 AM


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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Idioms (Jack Kilmon)
   2. El = God? (Chavoux Luyt)


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Message: 1
Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 11:47:55 -0500
From: "Jack Kilmon" <jkilmon AT historian.net>
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Idioms
To: "Hebrew" <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <4B7E1A46DBB045C4BB2744621393453B@JackPC>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
    reply-type=response

That's interesting, Doug.  I have never been clear that the concept of a 
Messiah, other than that of someone who had been anointed/smeared with oil 
as a sort of "badge of honor," existed prior to the late second temple 
period.  I think the concept of a salvific warrior-priest began to 
crystalize during the gruesome persecution of the Pharisees by 
Jonathan/Alexander Jannaeus (the "wicked priest" of Pesher Habakkuk) and 
evolved during the hegemony of the "kittim" (Romans).  I think we see the 
beginnings of Messianic "hope" beginning to form in 4Q175 (Testimonia) with 
its TWO Messiahs, the Davidic warrior king who will kick butt and restore 
Israel and his sidekick, the priestly Messiah; and the Manual of Discipline 
1QS. This suggests that the author of the 2nd temple concept may have been 
the Moreh haTsaddik himself.  I think the conjoining of the two Messiahs, as 
found in CD, occurred during the "kittim" period post 63 BCE.

Jack

-----Original Message----- 
From: Doug Belot
Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2011 5:36 PM
To: Jack Kilmon
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Idioms

Hi Jack , would you include "daughter of Zion" , 2nd Kga 19:21 , Zec 9:9 ,
Math 21:5 , John 12:15 , , this being a reference to Israel during the era
of the Prophets, Zion is Israel before the Messaih and daughter of Zion is
the Israel that welcomed the Messiah , Math 21:5,Joh12:15.

doug belot
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jack Kilmon" <jkilmon AT historian.net>
To: "Hebrew" <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Friday, August 05, 2011 12:34 AM
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Idioms


> Hi all:
>
> First, if there are any Muslim members, may I offer my best wishes for
> Ramadan.
>
> I have found in my Aramaic background studies relevant to the NEW 
> Testament
> that idiom is very often overlooked in doing exegesis.  I would be very
> interested if some members would post examples of Hebrew idioms, 
> euphemisms,
> metaphors and figures of speech from the Tanakh that often go unclarified
> but which may affect exegesis, particularly by Christians.  Perhaps there 
> is
> a seminal work on this as well.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jack
>
> Jack Kilmon
> Houston, TX
>
> _______________________________________________
> b-hebrew mailing list
> b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew


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Message: 2
Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 20:48:00 +0200
From: Chavoux Luyt <chavoux AT gmail.com>
Subject: [b-hebrew] El = God?
To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID:
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Hi every-one

I have read in various (archaeological) sources that the "chief god"
of the Canaanite pagans were called "El" with the implication that
"El" was a personal name rather than being the generic word for "god".
Of course in the Hebrew religion of the Bible, there was only one God
and it would be legitimate to simply call Him "God" as a "personal
name" of sorts. It seems to me however, the in the Hebrew Scriptures
the term "Ha-Elohim" ("the Gods", but with singular verbs) is normally
used instead of only "El" and that when "El" is used as a personal
name it is normally as part of a compound name (e.g. El Shaddai, El
Gibor, El Elyon etc.).

My question is basically this: is there any evidence that the Hebrews
used "El" on its own as a personal name? Or is it rather used as the
generic term for "God" only? Can this be considered as a semantic
difference between Hebrew and Canaanite usage or may the
interpretation of "El" as a personal name instead of a generic term
for "god" in ANE archaeology simply be mistaken?

Regards
Chavoux Luyt


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