Biblical Hebrew Forum

["Arnaud Fournet" <fournet.arnaud AT wanadoo.fr>]

----- Original Message ----- 
From: JimStinehart AT aol.com
To: fournet.arnaud AT wanadoo.fr ; leviny1 AT mail.biu.ac.il ; 
b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2011 8:54 PM
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] words with the same root letters: XCC-N TMR


Dr. Fournet:

On the b-hebrew list, we are trying to figure out the reference at Genesis 
14: 7 to XCC-N TMR.  If that’s a Hurrian phrase, then the locale must be 
north of the Dead Sea, not on the southwest edge of the Dead Sea or 
southwest of the Dead Sea, as has previously been assumed, because the 
Hurrians were never south of the Dead Sea.  So it’s a big deal if XCC-N TMR 
is or is not redolent of Hurrian.

The Akkadian/Semitic connection that you stress is also important here.  The 
princeling author of Amarna Letter EA 175 from Hasi has a west Semitic name. 
The Amarna Letters themselves are written in Akkadian cuneiform, by scribes 
who were familiar with Akkadian.  So a Hurrian city name could get recast in 
an Akkadian guise, and vice versa, depending on who was controlling the city 
at the time.  Two other Amana Letters from Hasi are written by a princeling 
with a Hurrian-type name.

You write:  “…hassissi or hazizi are obviously borrowings from Akkadian and 
not native ‘Hurrian’ words.  Again you chose a Semitic loanword to explain a 
Semitic word.  There's nothing Hurrian in there.”

We are discussing XCC-N TMR at Genesis 14: 7.  TMR is the Hurrian word for 
“nine”.  It’s not Akkadian.  –N is the ubiquitous Hurrian suffix, often 
meaning “the”, or being an individuating suffix, etc.  It’s not Akkadian. 
The Hurrian word for “wisdom” is xa-tsi-tsi.
***
The native Hurrian word for "wisdom" is madi.
A.
***



That’s a perfect match, letter for letter, to XCC in Biblical Hebrew.  You 
may well be right that xa-tsi-tsi in Hurrian is a borrowing from Akkadian. 
But the Akkadian word for “wisdom” is xa-si-su, which is not a perfect match 
to XCC in Biblical Hebrew.
***
This is beyond absurd.
Akkadian xa-si-su is exactly the same word as Hurrian.
In addition this "word" is in fact mostly attested in the Akkadian compound 
eni-hasisi "lord of wisdom" parallel to en-umaSSi "lord of strength", both 
of them from Akkadian.
The -i of hasisi is not the std nominative of Hurrian but the Akkadian 
Genitive.
A.
***


If we stay on the Hurrian side for one moment, “Wisdom-the Nine” in Hurrian 
is a 7-letter exact match to what we see at Genesis 14: 7, knowing that 
Biblical Hebrew, unlike Hurrian, for the most part only records consonants. 
Biblical XCC-N TMR fits perfectly the Hurrian phrase xa-tsi-tsi-ni tam-ri.

But that long Hurrian name is not the city name we see at Amarna Letter EA 
175.  No, what we see there, not so unexpectedly, is a shortened Akkadian 
form.  “Nine” and “-the” are dropped off, and we’re left with “wisdom”.  But 
even there, we only get the first two syllables, xa-si, being the first two 
syllables of the Akkadian word for “wisdom”, which is xa-si-su.

That analysis explains the observed phenomenon:  (i) the Bible has XCC-N 
TMR, being the Hurrian phrase xa-tsi-tsi-ni tam-ri, meaning “Wisdom-the 
Nine”,
***
That sounds like impossible syntax.
Hasisi is hardly attested as an independent morpheme, it's not attested 
with -ni, which is quite logically for an abstract noun, and what does 
"nine" do there?
A.
***



and (ii) Amarna Letter EA 175 has xa-si;  and both sources are talking about 
the same place in the same time period:  Hasi in the Beqa Valley.  In the 
first case it’s the full Hurrian name, and in the second case it’s an 
abbreviated Akkadian version.  But the key word in this city name in both 
cases, whether Hurrian or Akkadian, is “wisdom”.  The fact that 
XCC/xa-tsi-tsi in Hurrian may well be “a Semitic loanword” helps my case, 
rather than hurts it.  I am trying to get the geography and the time period 
right by correctly identifying this important geographical place name, 
rather than disputing your views as to what Hurrian words are Semitic 
loanwords.

1.  How do you interpret XCC-N TMR at Genesis 14: 7?  Isn’t it a perfect, 
letter-for-letter match to “Wisdom-the Nine” in Hurrian, namely 
xa-tsi-tsi-ni tam-ri?
***
What are the vowels of XCC-N TMR ?
Is C not Tsade?
A.
***


2.  How do you interpret xa-si at Amarna Letter EA 175?  Isn’t that likely 
an abbreviated version of the Akkadian word for “wisdom”, where the full 
Akkadian word is xa-si-su?
***
Why should Semitic people cut a triliteral word xasisu to make it a 
biliteral "lame" word?
A.
***


> From your other comments, I presume you may agree with me that the 
princeling author of Amarna Letter EA 175 is likely an Amorite.  As you 
know, some Amorites lived in the Hurrian-dominated Beqa Valley in the 
mid-14th century BCE.  So Genesis 14: 7 could well be right in referring to 
Amorites in the Hurrian-dominated Beqa Valley, if XCC-N TMR is a Hurrian 
reference to Hasi.
***
Hurrian-dominated Beqa Valley in the mid-14th century BCE ??

I really can't see this.
A.
***



If you have an alternative understanding of XCC-N TMR at Genesis 14: 7, 
please set it forth, and we’ll look at it.  There is no XCC at Ein Gedi, and 
there is no XCC at the Roman-era village of Tamar south of the Dead Sea. 
Scholars don’t claim to have found any name remotely resembling XCC at any 
such southern location.  But as a Hurrian scholar, you can’t look at XCC in 
Biblical Hebrew without thinking xa-tsi-tsi/“wisdom” in Hurrian.  Up north, 
with the Hurrians, is where to find XCC.  In Amarna Letter EA 175, we find 
the remnant of XCC, in the shortened Akkadian form of xa-si.  That’s my 
theory of the case.  But if you have an alternative theory, we’d all love to 
see it.  Just remember, on the b-hebrew list we’re trying to figure out the 
meaning and identity of the Biblical Hebrew geographical place name XCC-N 
TMR at Genesis 14: 7, rather than arguing which Hurrian words may or may not 
be Akkadian loanwords.
***
In general there is hardly any doubt about being an Akkadian loanword.
And in the case of hasisi  it's absolute certainty.

Arnaud Fournet