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  • From: Kevin Riley <klriley AT alphalink.com.au>
  • To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
  • Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] pere's question on he/she/him/her
  • Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2010 17:09:37 +1100

You definitely need 'him', 'her', 'them'. You cannot have 'of he', etc, in English. The subject form of a pronoun can never follow a preposition. Most times English speakers would change '(in) the fact/act of him to speak' to '(in) the fact/act of his speaking'. I am sure there is complicated English grammar involved, but this is a Hebrew list, and it's Sabbath, which gives me two good reasons not to think about it :)

Kevin Riley

On 18/12/2010 4:44 PM, Pere Porta wrote:
Nir,
thank you for your kind explanation.
But I'd prefer a more direct and precise answer.
My question is really not on the Hebrew but on the English as this is
intended to, so to say, literally translate the Hebrew:

---In Gn 37:4 we have DABRWO, to speak him/it. No problem with the English
because the suffix -WO plays the part of the object and not of the subject.

---But in Ex 34:29 we have B'DABRWO. Putting aside preposition B, we have
the same word.

Now, at literally translating it to the English, which is the right form:

1. (in) the fact/act of HE to speak
2. (in) the fact/act of HIM to speak?

Remark: here in Ex 34:29 the suffix WO plays the part of the subject (and
not the part of the object as it was the case in Gn 37:4).

This is my question.
Remark that I'm asking on the English rather than on the Hebrew (I'm not a
native english-speaking person...)

Pere Porta
(Barcelona, Catalonia, Spain)
2010/12/17 Nir cohen - Prof. Mat.<nir AT ccet.ufrn.br>

pere,

SHEM HAPOAL is a noun which indicates both root and binyan. when used in
SMIXUT with a suffix, it always indicates NOSE HAPOAL, not NESU
HAPOAL. (in your words, "he" and not "him"). however, whether it
would be active or passive depends on the binyan. compare LIDTAH and
HIVALDAH (give birth vs. be born). also, gender (m/f), guf (1/2/3)
and number (s/p) should agree with the NOSE HAPOAL.

as to NESU HAPOAL, it cannot enter as a suffix, and has to appear in
separate:
LIDTA OTO, LEDET OTO. this is not so in non-noun verb forms, eg HA'ALUHU,
HE'ELUHU, YA'ALUHU, where we have two suffixes.

the present tense behaves like a noun rather than a verb. for example, it
does
not agree with guf, only with gender and number. so it also does not
admit a NESU HAPOAL. YOLEDET OTO.

YOLADETO seems a counter example, but as YOLEDET here does not describe
an action but a person, we do not have POAL, hence NOSE/NESU HAPOAL, to
begin
with, and so there is no problem.

nir cohen

Hi, list.
When trying to literally translate infinitives with personal suffix (the
suffix playing the part of the subject of the infinitive) such as:
1. (A&OTO -------- Jr 30:24
2. (ALOTO -------- Is 11:16
3. LIDTAH ---------- Gn 38:27
4. RIDTAH --------- Dt 20:20
and so on...
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