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  • From: fred burlingame <tensorpath AT gmail.com>
  • To: Kevin Riley <klriley AT alphalink.com.au>
  • Cc: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
  • Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] cognate alphabet
  • Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2010 20:32:19 -0600

Hello Kevin:

Thanks for your comments. I offer the following response.

1. Whatever the motivations of the hugely profitable english language bible
publishers, one fact admits of dispute not. Major substantive differences
characterize the tanakh and septuagint, from page 1 to page 771.

2. Both renderings in each of numerous instances cannot be correct, that is
unless Yigal's recent endorsement of one of my alternate suggestions in an
earlier thread, rules, to wit: "choose whatever translation you like, and be
happy."

3. What is truly extraordinary however, about this situation, follows. The
septuagint appears as part and parcel of a single larger manuscript,
identified alternatively as codices vaticanus, alexandrinus, and sinaticus.
The latter one third of that document ("new testament") quotes and
paraphrases heavily from the first two thirds (septuagint) of the document.
And yet the english language publishers (and their scholar consultants)
reject much of the septuagint in favor of the masoretic text for purposes of
translating the first two thirds of the manuscript ("old testament").
Reflect on that for a moment.

4. The very text (septuagint) forming the foundation of the new testament in
codices vaticanus, etc., and so translated into english; the publishers
reject in favor of the masoretic text in old testament translation. Permit
me to suggest the consequence of this circumstance slightly larger than the
print on this page.

And so, we return full circle to the original issue. Which language
succeeds; and which fails; one? the other? both? neither?

A large swath of masoretic text consumers seem to alternate back and forth
like the breeze ....

regards,

fred burlingame
On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 4:50 PM, Kevin Riley <klriley AT alphalink.com.au>wrote:

> Are you aware of why the LXX has historically (in recent centuriess) been
> rejected? Most translation committees start with an acceptance of the MT as
> 'the' text. Unless the MT fails to make sense, why would they go to the
> LXX? After all, it is the MT they are translating, not the LXX. I am not
> sure how that leads to the conclusion that the LXX has 'failed' as a
> translation. You may also find that the picture is not quite so clear if
> you look beyond English language translations. Unless things have changed
> recently, there are still millions of Christians who give the LXX primacy
> over the MT. Perhaps it would help if you saw it in terms of two different
> questions: 1) what did the original author write? and 2) what is the
> original reading of the MT tradition? I suspect most translation committees
> are (for very good reasons) asking question 2), whereas you seem to be
> wanting to ask question 1). How much help the LXX can give in answering
> either question will depend to a large degree on your understanding of the
> history of the text(s), including all those religious and philosophical
> questions we like to pretend don't exist so we can talk about the Hebrew
> text without getting side-tracked into interminable arguments over doctrinal
> details.
>
> Kevin Riley
>
>
> On 26/11/2010 9:23 AM, fred burlingame wrote:
>
>> Hello Bryant:
>>
>> Happy Thanksgiving.
>>
>> Thanks for your comments.
>>
>> I agree; and modern day publishers (and their academic consultants) of
>> english language bibles, agree also as to the big difference between:
>>
>> a. tanakh; and
>>
>> b. septuagint.
>>
>> These publishers' apparent, uniform rejection of the septuagint, and
>> uniform
>> acceptance of numerous, corresponding, but differing, renderings in the
>> tanakh, argues strongly in favor of the conclusion that the septuagint has
>> failed ... as a translation.
>>
>> regards,
>>
>> fred burlingame
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 1:53 PM, Bryant J. Williams III<
>> bjwvmw AT com-pair.net
>>
>>> wrote:
>>> Dear Fred B.,
>>>
>>> One has to distinguish from Hebrew Tanakh and Greek LXX. The Tanakh was
>>> written
>>> primarily in Hebrew with portions of Daniel, Ezra and a verse in Jeremiah
>>> in
>>> Aramaic of the 6th - 5th Centuries BC. The LXX is Greek from the 3rd
>>> Century
>>> (ca. 250) - 1st Century BC. There are some later editors, e.g.
>>> Theodotion,
>>> etc.,
>>> from about the 1st - 3rd Century AD. Of course, the Great Codices,
>>> Alexandrinus,
>>> Sinaiticus and Vaticanus, are from the 4th Century AD (ca. 320) have the
>>> LXX and
>>> the NT.
>>>
>>> Now that the DSS Biblical MSS have been open to all scholars they will
>>> now
>>> be
>>> included in any text-critical problems in translating the Tanakh into
>>> English.
>>> TNIV or NIV 2011, and possibly others, was supposed to use the DSS for
>>> this
>>> purpose (?).
>>>
>>> The use of the LXX can possibly help in some of the hapax legomena, but
>>> not
>>> always. The Pentateuch, or Law of Moses, is fairly consistent in its
>>> translation
>>> method, but the rest of the Tanakh is not so consistent. See the NETS
>>> translation of the LXX for further information
>>> (1) The print version is available: Albert Pietersma and Benjamin G.
>>> Wright
>>> are the editors and the publisher is Oxford University Press (Oxford)
>>> www.oup.com/us ISBN (9780195289756);
>>>
>>> (2) An electronic version (PDFs viewable online or downloadable) is
>>> accessible
>>> online at: http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/nets/edition/.
>>>
>>> I am giving a general overview of the situation, but not too general.
>>>
>>> BTW, Happy Thanksgiving to all
>>>
>>> Rev. Bryant J. Williams III
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "fred burlingame"<tensorpath AT gmail.com>
>>> To: "fred putnam"<fred.putnam AT gmail.com>
>>> Cc:<b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
>>> Sent: Thursday, November 25, 2010 10:00 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] cognate alphabet
>>>
>>>
>>> > Hello Fred:
>>>
>>>> I am not sure of the boundaries of these two professions: textual
>>>>
>>> criticism;
>>>
>>>> and comparative linguistics.
>>>>
>>>> You may well be correct that my original post in this thread addresses
>>>> matters more within the former versus the latter profession. After all
>>>>
>>> has
>>>
>>>> been said in this thread to date however, I am not entirely convinced of
>>>>
>>> the
>>>
>>>> wholly alien nature of ancient greek to masoretic text ("MT") hebrew. If
>>>> cuneiform can inform MT, why not septuagint greek, from a comparative
>>>> linguistic standpoint?
>>>>
>>>> Be that as it may, my un-scientific experience with modern english bible
>>>> publishers, unanimously accepting the MT rendering and correspondingly
>>>> rejecting a competing and differing septuagint greek rendering ...
>>>>
>>> discloses
>>>
>>>> to me that this phenomenon occurs frequently and not "in a relatively
>>>>
>>> few"
>>>
>>>> occasions. Such circumstance implies to me one of two conclusions:
>>>>
>>>> a. the failure of one language to achieve translation of the other; or
>>>>
>>>> b. the two languages addressed two different subjects and stories.
>>>>
>>>> Either way, the situation becomes remarkable .... in my humble opinion.
>>>>
>>>> regards,
>>>>
>>>> fred burlingame
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 10:36 PM, fred putnam<fred.putnam AT gmail.com>
>>>>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Fred,
>>>>>
>>>>> It seems that your question has more to do with textual criticism--why
>>>>> relatively few LXX/MT differences are decided "in favour of" LXX. Is
>>>>>
>>>> this
>>>
>>>> right?
>>>>>
>>>>> You might find Emanuel Tov, *Textual Criticism*, helpful, or his
>>>>>
>>>> earlier
>>>
>>>> work on the Septuagint (1980?). Sorry, I'm doing this from home, and
>>>>>
>>>> most of
>>>
>>>> my books are at school.
>>>>>
>>>>> Also, no English version that I know footnotes every time the
>>>>>
>>>> translators
>>>
>>>> or editors decide to accept a particular reading of LXX. This is,
>>>>>
>>>> again, a
>>>
>>>> matter of textual criticism (above).
>>>>>
>>>>> Fred Putnam
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 6:54 PM, fred burlingame
>>>>>
>>>> <tensorpath AT gmail.com>wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hello Kevin:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks for your comments.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I can appreciate your distinction between alphabet and language.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The tie that binds greek and hebrew, phoenician alphabet, appears to
>>>>>>
>>>>> me,
>>>
>>>> however, more than a matter of form.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Greek_alphabet
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Hebrew_alphabet
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I just don't see why (cognate to hebrew) ugarit language (for example,
>>>>>>
>>>>> but
>>>
>>>> without limitation) instructs the understanding of biblical hebrew;
>>>>>> whereas
>>>>>> ancient greek does not do so.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> regards,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> fred burlingame
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 5:34 PM, Kevin Riley<
>>>>>>
>>>>> klriley AT alphalink.com.au
>>>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> Yes - the sequences are similar because the sequence was borrowed
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> with
>>>
>>>> the
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> alphabet. No one is questioning the borrowing of the alphabet. But
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> sharing
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> an alphabet does not make two languages 'cognate' - at least, not as
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> that
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> term is usually used.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Kevi Riley
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 25/11/2010 9:45 AM, Hedrick Gary wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Not to add fuel to the fire here, but one cannot help being struck
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> by
>>>
>>>> some
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> of the similarities in sequences, even between Hebrew, English, and
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Greek.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> qof, resh, shin, tav
>>>>>>>> p, q, r, s, t
>>>>>>>> pi, rho, sigma, tau
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Gary Hedrick
>>>>>>>> San Antonio, Texas USA
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Nov 24, 2010, at 4:31 PM, Kevin Riley wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The *alphabets* have a common ancestor. That is not the same as
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> the
>>>
>>>> *languages* being cognate. As far back as there is reliable
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> evidence,
>>>
>>>> Greek
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> and Hebrew are not cognate languages. In terms of language, if
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> there
>>>
>>>> was a
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 'proto-Canaanite', then it is the mother of Hebrew, Phoenician,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Moabite,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ammonite, etc, but not of Greek.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Kevin Riley
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 25/11/2010 4:41 AM, fred burlingame wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> affirmative; the common parent = proto-canaanite.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_alphabet
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> regards,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> fred burlingame
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 11:11 AM, Christopher Kimball<
>>>>>>>>>> transcriber AT tanach.us
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Is Greek usually considered a cognate language of Hebrew?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Chris Kimball
>>>>>>>>>>> West Redding, CT
>>>>>>>>>>> USA
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> --)---------------
>>>>> "We are not yet what we already are" (J. Pieper).
>>>>>
>>>>> Frederic Clarke Putnam, Ph.D. | Professor of Biblical Studies
>>>>> Philadelphia Biblical University | 200 Manor Avenue | Langhorne, PA
>>>>> 19047-2990
>>>>> http://pbu.edu | 1215-702-4502 | Fax: 1-215-702-4533 |
>>>>>
>>>> www.fredputnam.org
>>>
>>>>  Before printing this email, think green!
>>>>>
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>>>>
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