Biblical Hebrew Forum

["Steve Miller" <smille10 AT sbcglobal.net>]

> From: Pere Porta Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 1:06 AM
> 
> We have here, Steve, a word with a double meaning: spring and thought.
> 
> Have you a good Hebrew dictionary? Look at it.

Thanks Pere!
Perhaps I am not using them to full advantage, but TWOT, BDB, Holladay & 
Davidson do not show "thought" as a meaning. Klein has a meaning "weighed 
carefully", "consider", but no Biblical references. 
What's more important, no instance of מעינ* in the Tanach means "thought". 
There are only 2 meanings that I see: "spring" or "from eyes".
Just give me some Biblical refs where the word means "thought".

> This is a quite common fact in nearly every language: a word that means two,
> three... different things.

Yes, that is true. But I don't think it is that common for a word to have 2 
different meanings, where both are the same part of speech. If there are a 
lot of these, the language would be confusing. For example, cases such as 
"saw" = a tool for cutting wood, and "saw" = past tense for "to see" is 
common.

> 
> In English:* ban* means 'edict, proclamation' and also 'to forbid'.

For all practical purposes, "ban" does not mean 'edict, proclamation'. The 2 
online dictionaries (Merriam-Webster & Heritage) I use do not give that as a 
possible meaning.  If you use "ban" to mean that, no English speaker will 
understand you. 
This is an example of what I mean. It is not common for a word to have 2 
unrelated meanings where both are the same part of speech.

> Concerning our word:
> --if we consider the meaning 'spring', then the base is 'ayin' (a noun)
> --if we consider the meaning 'thought', then the base is 'iyyen' (a verb 
> pi'el).

I can't follow your transliteration of the verb. 

> Take a look here:
> http://www.oham.net/out/P-t/P-t337.html

I don't get your point with the above site. "thought" is there as the meaning 
of a totally different word.

> Heartly,
> Pere Porta
> (Barcelona, Catalonia, Spain)

2010/10/11 Steve Miller <smille10 AT sbcglobal.net>

> Thanks Pere,
> I don't see the word ever meaning "thoughts". Would God say, "All My
> thoughts are in Zion"? It is some deep source of enjoyment. I would
> translate the word literally as "springs" and let the reader deduce the
> abstraction for himself.  I think the meaning in Ps 87:7 is similar to Prov
> 5:15-23, that a man should enjoy his wife and not another woman. God has
> that kind of relationship with Zion.
>
> Sincerely,
> -Steve Miller
> Detroit
> www.voiceInWilderness.info <http://www.voiceinwilderness.info/>
> No one can read the Gospels without feeling the actual presence of Jesus.
> His personality pulsates in every word. No myth is filled with such life. -
> Albert Einstein (1879-1955)
>
> From: Pere Porta Sent: Monday, October 04, 2010 1:10 AM
>
> Dear Steve,
>
> only a remark.
> "kol ma'yanay bakh" ---- I think this would better be translated as "all my
> thoughts (are) in you" > All my mind is on you.
>
> Noun 'ma'yan' has two meanings: 'spring' and 'thought'.
> In Psa 74:15 it clearly means 'spring'. But here, in Psa 87:7, its meaning
> is 'thought'.
>
> This is what I think.
>
> Pere Porta
> 2010/10/4 Steve Miller <smille10 AT sbcglobal.net>
> I have a number of questions on this puzzling psalm. Here are the 2
> biggest:
>
> *Q1 - v3 Glorious things are spoken of Thee, O city of God. Selah
> The problem is that the verb  "are spoken", מְדֻבָּ֣ר, is 3ms, but the
> supposed subject נִ֭כְבָּדוֹת is fem. plural.
> I think this means that the "glorious things" are not what is being spoken
> but rather describes the speaking.
>
> Song of Songs 8:8 is similar: ... what shall we do for our sister in the
> day when she shall be spoken for?
> מַֽה־נַּעֲשֶׂה֙ לַאֲחֹתֵ֔נוּ בַּיּ֖וֹם שֶׁיְּדֻבַּר־בָּֽהּ
>
> Here the same passive verb דבר  is 3ms followed by the same preposition ב
> and the subject "our sister" (by way of the relative pronoun) is fem.
> singular. This mismatch between subject and verb is because it is not the
> sister who is being spoken, but it is a marriage proposal that is the thing
> spoken.
>
> 1 Sam 25:39 also uses DBR followed by B preposition for marriage proposal.
> Here the verb is active and 3ms agrees with the subject "David".
>
> I think the meaning of Ps 87:3 is, "Glorious is your being spoken for" or
> "Glorious is your courtship".
>
> Is this reasonable?
>
>
> *Q2 - v7 - And singers like dancers (?), all my springs are in thee.
> The big problem for me is how to translate כְּחֹלְלִ֑ים. It is translated
> as either dancers based on root חול or pipers based on root חָלִיל, both of
> which seem like guesses to me.
> Another problem is how to translate the כ preposition. Most translate it
> "as well as", but I don't think כ can have that meaning. Normally it just
> means "like".
> Another problem is how to handle there being no verb there.
>
> I think the most straightforward way to translate כְּחֹלְלִ֑ים would be
> "like slain ones" as in the following psalm 88:6, where the full
> preposition, כְּמ֤וֹ, is used instead of just the prefix.
>
> So I would translate it as: "And [the] singers [are] like slain ones. All
> my springs are in thee.
>
> Comments?
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
>
> Sincerely,
> -Steve Miller
> Detroit
> www.voiceInWilderness.info <http://www.voiceinwilderness.info/>
> As a child I received instruction both in the Bible and in the Talmud. I am
> a Jew, but I am enthralled by the luminous figure of the Nazarene. - Albert
> Einstein (1879-1955)
>
>  --
> Pere Porta
> "Ei nekrói ouk eguéirontai, fágomen kai píomen áurion gar apothnéskomen"
> (1Cor 15:32)