Biblical Hebrew Forum

["Steve Miller" <smille10 AT sbcglobal.net>]

Thanks Pere,
I don't see the word ever meaning "thoughts". Would God say, "All My thoughts 
are in Zion"? It is some deep source of enjoyment. I would translate the word 
literally as "springs" and let the reader deduce the abstraction for himself. 
 I think the meaning in Ps 87:7 is similar to Prov 5:15-23, that a man should 
enjoy his wife and not another woman. God has that kind of relationship with 
Zion.

Sincerely,
-Steve Miller
Detroit
www.voiceInWilderness.info
No one can read the Gospels without feeling the actual presence of Jesus. His 
personality pulsates in every word. No myth is filled with such life. - 
Albert Einstein (1879-1955)

From: Pere Porta Sent: Monday, October 04, 2010 1:10 AM

Dear Steve,
 
only a remark. 
"kol ma'yanay bakh" ---- I think this would better be translated as "all my 
thoughts (are) in you" > All my mind is on you. 
 
Noun 'ma'yan' has two meanings: 'spring' and 'thought'.
In Psa 74:15 it clearly means 'spring'. But here, in Psa 87:7, its meaning is 
'thought'.
 
This is what I think. 
 
Pere Porta
2010/10/4 Steve Miller <smille10 AT sbcglobal.net>
I have a number of questions on this puzzling psalm. Here are the 2 biggest:

*Q1 - v3 Glorious things are spoken of Thee, O city of God. Selah
The problem is that the verb  "are spoken", מְדֻבָּ֣ר, is 3ms, but the 
supposed subject נִ֭כְבָּדוֹת is fem. plural.
I think this means that the "glorious things" are not what is being spoken 
but rather describes the speaking.

Song of Songs 8:8 is similar: ... what shall we do for our sister in the day 
when she shall be spoken for?
מַֽה־נַּעֲשֶׂה֙ לַאֲחֹתֵ֔נוּ בַּיּ֖וֹם שֶׁיְּדֻבַּר־בָּֽהּ

Here the same passive verb דבר  is 3ms followed by the same preposition ב and 
the subject "our sister" (by way of the relative pronoun) is fem. singular. 
This mismatch between subject and verb is because it is not the sister who is 
being spoken, but it is a marriage proposal that is the thing spoken.

1 Sam 25:39 also uses DBR followed by B preposition for marriage proposal. 
Here the verb is active and 3ms agrees with the subject "David".

I think the meaning of Ps 87:3 is, "Glorious is your being spoken for" or 
"Glorious is your courtship".

Is this reasonable?


*Q2 - v7 - And singers like dancers (?), all my springs are in thee.
The big problem for me is how to translate כְּחֹלְלִ֑ים. It is translated as 
either dancers based on root חול or pipers based on root חָלִיל, both of 
which seem like guesses to me.
Another problem is how to translate the כ preposition. Most translate it "as 
well as", but I don't think כ can have that meaning. Normally it just means 
"like".
Another problem is how to handle there being no verb there.

I think the most straightforward way to translate כְּחֹלְלִ֑ים would be "like 
slain ones" as in the following psalm 88:6, where the full preposition, 
כְּמ֤וֹ, is used instead of just the prefix.

So I would translate it as: "And [the] singers [are] like slain ones. All my 
springs are in thee.

Comments?

Thanks in advance.


Sincerely,
-Steve Miller
Detroit
www.voiceInWilderness.info
As a child I received instruction both in the Bible and in the Talmud. I am a 
Jew, but I am enthralled by the luminous figure of the Nazarene. - Albert 
Einstein (1879-1955)

-- 
Pere Porta
"Ei nekrói ouk eguéirontai, fágomen kai píomen áurion gar apothnéskomen" 
(1Cor 15:32)