Biblical Hebrew Forum

[James Christian <jc.bhebrew AT googlemail.com>]

Actually, the discussion was more motivated by dating this particular
section of the Torah which it was claimed was late and only fitted a first
millenium view of Edom. Whether this small section could be used to date the
whole Torah is another matter altogether. It is obvious that the genealogy
was formed many years after the event because of the number of generations
in the genealogy.

If, for example, it was Moses who added these words to this genealogy it
would have been at least a few hundred years after the event.

Of course, we can hypothesise that these words were a small part of a much
larger epic legend involving demons and dragons however the probabilities
are going further and further down.

Most likely explanation corroborated by the data is that there was nothing
more spectacular than hot springs being found and target readership was
infantile nation of Israel still in the desert near the springs in question.

James Christian

On 15 May 2010 13:02, Kevin Riley <klriley100 AT gmail.com> wrote:

> You are assuming he is the central figure.  He may be a small part in a
> longer story where more action takes place.  We simply don't know.  Perhaps
> finding the springs is all he did, but is that all there was to the story
> that makes it remembered?  You may be right that this is all the story ever
> contained, in which case it is likely to have been recent, but it is still
> only an assumption that what is given here is all there is to the story.
> Can it really support the weight you seem to want to put on it?  I suspect
> I
> agree with you on the dating of the Torah (or at least its original
> composition), but I would put this way down on reasons for dating it so.
>
> Kevin Riley
>
> On 15 May 2010 19:54, James Christian <jc.bhebrew AT googlemail.com> wrote:
>
> > When you supply extra information so that people can connect with a
> person
> > that information is invariably what he is most known for. When somebody
> asks
> > us who Henry VIII was we don't the guy with an apple tree in his garden.
> We
> > say the king of England who dressed funny and had six wives. This guy in
> > Genesis was well known for finding some hot springs in the desert. Other
> > than locating a source of water nothing so spectacular.
> >
> > James Christian
> >
> >
> > On 15 May 2010 12:37, Kevin Riley <klriley100 AT gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> There is always the possibility that the incident is remembered as part
> of
> >> a
> >> longer story about which we have no details.  We don't know if this
> >> fragment
> >> is the whole story, or if the whole story contains fantastic elements or
> >> not.  It *may* be part of a story explaining how local landmarks got
> their
> >> name, it *may* be part of a story where gods and demons abound, or it
> >> *may*
> >> be a boring recollection from a few weeks ago.  We do not know what
> >> happened
> >> before or after the finding of the hot springs.  We do not have any way
> of
> >> knowing why this incident is remembered, so, as is often the case, most
> of
> >> us will understand it in line with however we understand Scripture to
> have
> >> been written or to function.  I don't see that, as it stands, it says
> >> anything about the age of this part of Scripture unless we make
> >> assumptions
> >> not based on the text.
> >>
> >> Kevin Riley
> >>
> >> On 15 May 2010 17:36, James Christian <jc.bhebrew AT googlemail.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> > Gods versus humans doesn't really work. The Iliad and the Odyssey are
> >> both
> >> > full of humans and gods. The gods meddle with human affairs. We then
> >> have
> >> > to
> >> > sift through each sentence saying 'myth',
> 'legend','legend','myth','myth
> >> > and
> >> > legend together' as we classify each and every utterance.
> >> >
> >> > Anyway, this is all getting quite far from the original discussion.
> >> Later
> >> > classifications of text are irrelevant and trying to force an account
> >> into
> >> > a
> >> > category doesn't really help or say anything about the age of the
> >> account
> >> > in
> >> > genesis.
> >> >
> >> > In any case Genesis doesn't say "this was the guy who shot lightening
> >> bolts
> >> > from his a**e and slayed the golden dragon and the 5 headed mander
> beast
> >> > from hell" it says "this was the guy who found some hot springs in the
> >> > desert while looking after his dad's herd". Nothing strikes me as
> either
> >> > mythical or legendary in any sense of the words in this story. Trying
> to
> >> > force the story into either category adds nothing of any benefit to an
> >> > analysis which is trying to attempt to age the text. We have a fairly
> >> good
> >> > idea of the readership of the Torah over a long period of time and so
> >> the
> >> > logical question to ask is which group of people were most likely to
> >> have
> >> > been familiar the spectacularly unspectacular story of the bloke from
> >> the
> >> > mountains of Seir who found some hot springs in the desert while
> looking
> >> > after his dad's flocks.
> >> >
> >> > Of all the categories of readerships throughout the timeline of the
> >> > Israelites the most likely target readership of this statement is the
> >> one
> >> > that is most likely to have been familiar with such a story. i.e. the
> >> one
> >> > that lived in the desert where the hot springs were found.
> >> >
> >> > Why would captives in Babylon be familiar with such an unspectacular
> >> story?
> >> > Why would temple going Jews from Jerusalem be familiar with such a
> >> story?
> >> > Why would battling nomads hoping to gain a fertile land for themselves
> >> be
> >> > familiar with such a story?(now a little more likely)
> >> > Why would guys who lived in the same desert as the hot springs were
> >> found
> >> > in
> >> > be familiar with such a story?(likelihood is now hitting the roof)
> >> >
> >> > Conclusion. Either this a very very good forgery to make the Torah
> >> appear
> >> > more ancient or this is a genuine hallmark of the Torah's age (or at
> >> least
> >> > this particular section of the Torah). Does anyone have any good
> reasons
> >> > for
> >> > disagreeing?
> >> >
> >> > James Christian
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >
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