Biblical Hebrew Forum

[James Christian <jc.bhebrew AT googlemail.com>]

Interesting. So, in essence, he shows agreement with my suggestion that
Elohim is being used as a proper name?

James Christian

2009/10/14 Bryant J. Williams III <bjwvmw AT com-pair.net>

>  Dear James,
>
> See page 402, para. 2. and 125*f*, Rem. I.
>
>     2. REal *proper nouns*, as being the names of things (or persons) onle
> *once* met with, are sufficiently determinate in themselves. Such names,
> therefore, YHWH, David, Yaacob, Cenaan, Selom do not admit of the article,
> nor can they be in the construct state,...
>
>     In a few instances original appellatives have completely assumed the
> character of real proper names, and are therefore used without the article:
> thus "elohim God:, to denoted the one true God (as elsewhere YHWH) Gn 1:1,
> and so generally in this document of the Pentateuch up to Ex 6, ...."
> Gesenius gives further examples.
>
> I would recommend reading the entire section on the article.
>
> Rev. Bryant J. Williams III
>
>  ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* James Christian <jc.bhebrew AT googlemail.com>
>   *To:* Bryant J. Williams III <bjwvmw AT com-pair.net>
> *Cc:* Joel C. Salomon <joelcsalomon AT gmail.com> ; Biblical Hebrew 
> list<b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 13, 2009 4:28 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [b-hebrew] Definite articles and proper names in B-Hebrew
>
> Thanks for that. I'm missing the bit where it explains the lack of the
> article in conjuction with elohim in the creation account. None of the
> points he makes seem relevant.
>
> James Christian
>
> 2009/10/13 Bryant J. Williams III <bjwvmw AT com-pair.net>
>
>> Dear James,
>>
>> Gesenius' Hebrew Grammar, p. 404, para. 126, 2.
>>    "The article is, generally speaking, employed to determine a
>> substantive
>> wherever it is required by Greek and English; thus:
>>        (a) When a person or thing already spoken of is mentioned again,
>> and is
>> consequently more definite to the mind of the hearer or reader; e.g. Gn
>> 1:3 and
>> God said, Let there be light; verse 4 and God saw the light ('et-ha'or).
>>
>> Probably more to the point is pages 410ff.
>>    When a genitive, deteremined in any way, followsa nomen regens, it also
>> determines the nomen regens, which, according to para. 89 a, is always in
>> the
>> construct state. Moreover, every pronominal suffix attached to a
>> substantive is,
>> according to para. 33 c, to be considered a genitive determinate by
>> nature. An
>> independent genitve may be determinate -
>>    (a) By its character as a proper name (according to 125 a), e.g. debar
>> YHWH,
>> the word of the LORD.
>>
>> Of course, Gesenius gives several examples of instances where the article
>> is
>> omitted due to rhythm or rhetoric.
>>
>> Rev. Bryant J. Williams
>>  ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "James Christian" <jc.bhebrew AT googlemail.com>
>> To: "Joel C. Salomon" <joelcsalomon AT gmail.com>
>> Cc: "Biblical Hebrew list" <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2009 2:22 PM
>> Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Definite articles and proper names in B-Hebrew
>>
>>
>> > I hate to bring this up again but after so long a discussion we don't
>> seem
>> > to have reached any kind of grammatically plausible explanation of why
>> the
>> > article is consistently missing in the style of the creation account.
>> > Is there anybody in favour of this being explained in the same way as
>> the
>> > absence in construct forms is explained? i.e. that phrases don't need
>> > definite articles if there are other indicators which make the phrase
>> > definite? If so, what are those indicators?
>> >
>> > Could it be that implicit definiteness is what explains that lack of
>> > definite articles in most languages? Native speakers of Slavonic
>> languages
>> > like Polish, Ukrainian and Russian - what difference do you perceive
>> between
>> > names and titles in your native languages? (NB there is no definite
>> article
>> > in Slavonic languages)
>> >
>> > James Christian
>> >
>> >
>> > 2009/10/6 Joel C. Salomon <joelcsalomon AT gmail.com>
>> >
>> > > James Christian wrote:
>> > > > I think you are referring to ויהי איש אחד מן הרמתים צופים which is
>> > > commonly
>> > > > translates as 'And there was a certain man from Ramathaim-Zophim'.
>> I'm
>> > > > guessing that you are trying to point out that Ramathaim-Zophim is a
>> > > proper
>> > > > name and yet is used with a definite article?
>> > >
>> > > I have seen this explained (by Malbim, IIRC) that "the Ramathaim" were
>> > > twin towns named Ramath.
>> > >
>> > > —Joel Salomon
>> > >  _______________________________________________
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>> > > b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
>> > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew
>> > >
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>> >
>>
>>
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