Biblical Hebrew Forum

[James Christian <jc.bhebrew AT googlemail.com>]

Hi,

2009/9/25 Steve Miller <smille10 AT sbcglobal.net>

> > From: James Christian
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > 2009/9/24 Steve Miller <smille10 AT sbcglobal.net>
> >
> > > Most people think that "yehi or vayehi or" means that God spoke light
> > into
> > > existence in that verse. I don't think it has to mean that.
> > >
> > > The phrase "haya <noun>" without a predicate seems to be rare.
> > >
> > > An example is the 6 repetitions in Gen 1 of the phrase "vayehi erev
> > vayehi
> > > bokar", "and it became evening, and it became morning". It doesn't mean
> > > that
> > > evening and morning never existed before and came into existence 6
> > times.
> > >
> > > "Light be made" is about as good a translation of Gen 1:3 as "and
> > evening
> > > was made, and morning was made" is of 1:5b, 8b, and so forth for each
> of
> > > the
> > > 6 days.
> > >
> > >
> > I think it is impossible to choose one single word to translate HYH that
> > sits well with the English idiom in every single case. Each case must be
> > analysed in its own right. The sense of HYH in ויהי ערב ויהי בקר is quite
> > clearly that of 'coming to pass' i.e. 'and evening came to pass and
> > morning
> > came to pass'.
> >
> > There are quite clearly several levels of translation ranging from the
> > more
> > literal to the more idiomatic. We could agree on a core meaning of HYH to
> > be
> > that of 'become' and then select a literal translation of 'and evening
> > became and morning became'. Then we could soften it as you have done
> above
> > and render 'and it became evening and it became morning'. Then we could
> > ask
> > ourselves 'Do people really talk like that in English?' i.e. 'Does this
> > translation really reflect the English idiom?'. Quite clearly, unless you
> > are quoting the Bible, it doesn't.
>
> [Steve Miller] I guess I read the Bible so much and hang around people that
> read the Bible a lot, so that "it became evening" sounds like normal
> English
> to me. "And evening came to pass" sounds more archaic to me.
>
>
I'm wondering the way novelists express this in their novels. Does anything
come to mind?


> >
> > So let's then go back to our original problem of how best to translate
> > ויאמר
> > אלהים יהי אור ויהי אור
>
> [Steve Miller] Just fyi: The order of the Hebrew letters is all reversed.
> It's still decipherable. I think when I reply, the letters will reverse
> again, and then they'll be correct.
>

I think this must be to do with whatever you are reading the emails with. In
the archives everything comes through in the right order.


>
> > How can we select the best translation that best
> > fits
> > the English idiom? Tradition has it that when Martin Luther was rendering
> > his German translation he would make frequent visits to the market to
> > listen
> > to how people speak and these visits greatly influenced his selections.
> > Have
> > you ever heard anybody in the market say stuff like 'Let there become 5KG
> > of
> > oranges and there became 5KG of oranges'?
>
> [Steve Miller] Then you should translate it, "And God said, Turn on the
> light."
>
>
lol. As much as I like this translation it suggests the pre-existence of a
light. I don't think this is the sense of the account.


> Seriously - there are some unusual phrases in the Bible because it
> describes
> something very unusual to our experience. "Let there be light" is unusual
> English, but it represents the Hebrew pretty well. "Let light be made" may
> be a strained version of something you hear on the factory floor, but it's
> not what the text says, unless you can show by means of its use in the rest
> of the Bible that "haya" can mean "made".
>
>

Well, my basic assumption here is that whoever translated the torah part of
the LXX was a native Hebrew and knew Hebrew far better than you or I. I'm
not suggesting their translation was perfect but the fact that in the
creation account in the LXX HYH is pretty much consistently translated with
a verb meaning 'to make' suggests to me that 'make' is very much a part of
the semantic range of HYH.

Jerome when he translated the Vulgate seemed to agree. Again, I stress the
point that I don't necessarily view these translations as authoritative but
it does shift the onus of the proof onto opponents of HYH covering the
semantic domain of 'to make'.

James Christian



> >
> > James Christian
> >
> >
> Sincerely,
> -Steve Miller
> Detroit
> www.voiceInWilderness.info
> The Lord send your help from the sanctuary,
> out of Zion support thee,
> remember all your offerings,
> and consume your burnt offering. Selah (Psalm 20:2-3)
>
>