Biblical Hebrew Forum

[Rolf Furuli <furuli AT online.no>]

Dear Randall,

I have not had access to the data-base I made in connection with my 
dissertation before today. I have looked at my tables with YIQTOLs 
with present reference in this data-base, and below I list 5 
examples. The English text is from the NIV.

1 Samuel 22:23

Stay with me; don't be afraid (YIQTOL) ; the man who is seeking 
(YIQTOL) your life is seeking (YIQTOL) mine also. You will be safe 
with me."

2 Samuel 3:8

This very day I am (YIQTOL) loyal to the house of your father Saul 
and to his family and friends.

2 Samuel 7:28

O Sovereign LORD, you are God! Your words are (YIQTOL) trustworthy, 
and you have (WAYYIQTOL) promised these good things to your servant.

The YIQTOL clearly has present reference, and the WAYYIQTOL probably 
has present completed (#perfect) reference.


1 Kings 8:39

then hear from heaven, your dwelling place. Forgive and act; deal 
with each man according to all he does, since you know (YIQTOL) his 
heart (for you alone know (QATAL)the hearts of all men),

In this passage we find one YIQTOL and one QATAL  with the same 
present reference.

2 Kings 9:20

The lookout reported (WAYYIQTOL), "He has reached (QATAL) them, but 
he isn't coming back (QATAL) either. The driving is like that of Jehu 
son of Nimshi-he drives (YIQTOL) like a madman."


Best regards,

Rolf Furuli
University of Oslo


> vayyixtov Rolf
> > B. Comrie (1985)
> > "Tense". He shows that an event that includes the
> > present moment and continues fits the definition.
> > In my view, all my examples fit this definition,
>
> That's pretty hard to claim, when your first example
> Dt 20.19-20 was dealing with a potential "whenever"
> context.
> What is it about potentiality
> ki tatsur el `ir "whenever you besiege a city"
> that I have missed?
> If I claimed that this allowed me to use the construction
> in a classroom for an actual, present tense, I would be
> laughed out of the guild.
>
> Again, the purpose of tightly restricting and defining
> situations was to prevent complexities from distracting
> the discussion. Karl is already distracted. Let's find
> something solid first,
> then we can discuss when a user would choose a
> participle and when a YIQTOL, (as for example I would
> do with participle questions and YIQTOL questions dealing
> with a real, ongoing, present situation).
> But we don't have any reliable YIQTOLs yet for the simple
> declarative that would justify my using it in a classroom in
> good faith.
>
> Also, since everyone knows that 'perfects' in a language
> can interact with the present moment, but in conversationally
> restricted ways, there was no request to discuss QATAL or
> VAYYIQTOL at this stage. One step at a time. And again,
> a person could not be taken seriously if they claimed that
> a 'perfect' situation and reference could justify applying them
> to an immediate, incomplete present in a classroom. *
>
> We need to define and restrict that situation so that we
> choose the structure that Yermiyahu would have chosen.
> We do this to the best of our ability, and are happy to be
> shown otherwise. That is why we need to ask for a yiqtol
> that is a) not a question, b) not in poetry,
> c) not a habitual/omnitemporal/potential (negation is
> a complex semantic entity that is not a place to start).
>
> And if there aren't any, that needs to be noted. That will
> affect the interpretation of marginal cases, as I showed
> with Laxish letter 4.
>
> blessings
> Randall Buth
>
> * and you wouldn't  want to perform a version of the totality
> transfer fallacy, to wit, if 'a' overlaps 'b' in meaning and 'b'
> overlaps 'c' in meaning, then 'a' can be used for 'c'. Should
> someone be allowed to claim that 'to have done now' is
> equally present with with 'is doing' or 'might be doing'? No.
> This is like a beginning language student who complains
> to a teacher: "the grammar book says GEGRAFE [he has
> written-perfect] can relate to present time and GRAFEI can
> relate to present time and writing on the board is happening
> now, which is present, so why can't I say GEGRAFE AYTO
> while he's writing the paragraph on the board?")
>
>
> --
> Randall Buth, PhD
> www.biblicalulpan.org
> randallbuth AT gmail.com
> Biblical Language Center
> Learn Easily - Progress Further - Remember for Life
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