Biblical Hebrew Forum

["Phil Sumpter" <philsumpter AT hotmail.com>]

Thank you Karl for your response.

You said:

>The questions follow the concept of a XYDH, a didactic question

I've never heard of a "XYDH didactic question," I'd be grateful if you could 
clarify that for me.

> The reason for the questions is to get people to think

My issue is how do you know this? This conclusion seems to be based on an 
exegesis of the function of the Psalm as a whole, rather than an insight 
based on form. I've actually come to a different conclusion since writing my 
post (which just shows how confusing I find this!). This section (vv. 3-6) is 
part of a whole, surrounded my doxology/polemic and liturgical drama, replete 
with demands and "special keys." It seems as if there is more involved then 
simply didactics (in its present canonical context, apart from any supposed 
Wisdom school setting).

I'll write my new thoughts in a separate post and would appreciate feedback.


Philip Sumpter

http://narrativeandontology.blogspot.com/
>From philsumpter AT hotmail.com  Tue Jun 23 14:00:38 2009
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Subject: [b-hebrew] Is Ps 24:3-6 subjunctive?
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I recently posted that I thought it wasn't. I've now had second thoughts 
(partly because I'm not sure how subjunctive questions differ from indicative 
questions ...). Here's my logic:

If modality “refers to (the orientation of a speaker concerning) the 
actuality of a process" (van der Merwe), do the questions in v. 3 refer to a 
fact (i.e. indicative: “who is allowed to ascend”) or to a “wish, 
expectation, possibility or uncertainty about the actuality of a matter”2 
(i.e. subjunctive: “who may ascend”). The answer seems to depend upon 
exegesis: is the question a dispassionate one about a matter of fact or does 
it imply desire on the part of the speaker? Again, the characteristics listed 
in v. 4 sounds like a string of indicatives, statements of fact ("one who has 
not done such and such"). But the context is one of non-factual 
possibilities, not an actual description of a person. This is strengthened by 
the fact that the subject of the verb comes in v. 5: יִשָּׂ֣א 
(yissa'). Given the parallel with the yiqtol verbs in the question in v.3, 
the verb indicates who would receive a blessing if he were to ascend. The 
demonstrative זֶ֭ה (zeh) of v. 6, then, refers to this hypothetical 
entity (whether it actually exists or not is beside the point). Thus, given 
the context, v. 6 would also be a subjunctive.

A "subjunctive" translation of vv. 3-6 would be (roughly) as follows:

"Who >may< ascend Yhwh's hill?
    and who may stand in his sanctuary?
One of innocent hands and a pure heart - 
    who hasn't lifted up my soul to nothing
        nor sworn falsley -
>will< receive a blessing from Yhwh
    and vindication from his saving God.
This one >would be< a generation that seeks, 
    that searches out your face, O Jacob."

Does this work? 

The "may" expresses the personal desire to ascend (rather than "shall" or 
"will"). The answer to the question is indirect. It is like a conditional 
sentence (the "1st conditional"): "if he is this, he will do this." I have 
other reasons for wanting to emphasise the subjunctivity of the section.

Philip Sumpter

http://narrativeandontology.blogspot.com/
>From kwrandolph AT gmail.com  Tue Jun 23 14:45:44 2009
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Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 11:45:42 -0700
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From: K Randolph <kwrandolph AT gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Verb modes in Ps 24
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Phil:

XYDH didactic question, a riddle that has an implied message or
statement that one has to think about in order to get the message,
e.g. Judges 14, Samson killed the lion with his bare hands, therefore
his message was, “Don’t mess with me!” The Philistines got it,
imperfectly, as their subsequent actions showed. 1 Kings 10:1 the
Queen of Sheba tested Solomon with didactic questions, apparently to
hammer out trade issues.

We find more explicitly the didactic portion of the word in Proverbs
1:6 “to have insight into rules and public statements, the expressions
of the wise and their didactic questions.”

I see these questions in Psalm 24 as didactic questions.

Karl W. Randolph.

On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 10:59 AM, Phil Sumpter<philsumpter AT hotmail.com> wrote:
> Thank you Karl for your response.
>
> You said:
>
>>The questions follow the concept of a XYDH, a didactic question
>
> I've never heard of a "XYDH didactic question," I'd be grateful if you 
> could clarify that for me.
>
>> The reason for the questions is to get people to think
>
> My issue is how do you know this? This conclusion seems to be based on an 
> exegesis of the function of the Psalm as a whole, rather than an insight 
> based on form. I've actually come to a different conclusion since writing 
> my post (which just shows how confusing I find this!). This section (vv. 
> 3-6) is part of a whole, surrounded my doxology/polemic and liturgical 
> drama, replete with demands and "special keys." It seems as if there is 
> more involved then simply didactics (in its present canonical context, 
> apart from any supposed Wisdom school setting).
>
> I'll write my new thoughts in a separate post and would appreciate feedback.
>
>
> Philip Sumpter
>
> http://narrativeandontology.blogspot.com/