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  • From: "Phil Sumpter" <philsumpter AT hotmail.com>
  • To: <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Verb modes in Ps 24
  • Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 19:59:39 +0200

Thank you Karl for your response.

You said:

>The questions follow the concept of a XYDH, a didactic question

I've never heard of a "XYDH didactic question," I'd be grateful if you could
clarify that for me.

> The reason for the questions is to get people to think

My issue is how do you know this? This conclusion seems to be based on an
exegesis of the function of the Psalm as a whole, rather than an insight
based on form. I've actually come to a different conclusion since writing my
post (which just shows how confusing I find this!). This section (vv. 3-6) is
part of a whole, surrounded my doxology/polemic and liturgical drama, replete
with demands and "special keys." It seems as if there is more involved then
simply didactics (in its present canonical context, apart from any supposed
Wisdom school setting).

I'll write my new thoughts in a separate post and would appreciate feedback.


Philip Sumpter

http://narrativeandontology.blogspot.com/
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Subject: [b-hebrew] Is Ps 24:3-6 subjunctive?
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I recently posted that I thought it wasn't. I've now had second thoughts
(partly because I'm not sure how subjunctive questions differ from indicative
questions ...). Here's my logic:

If modality “refers to (the orientation of a speaker concerning) the
actuality of a process" (van der Merwe), do the questions in v. 3 refer to a
fact (i.e. indicative: “who is allowed to ascend”) or to a “wish,
expectation, possibility or uncertainty about the actuality of a matter”2
(i.e. subjunctive: “who may ascend”). The answer seems to depend upon
exegesis: is the question a dispassionate one about a matter of fact or does
it imply desire on the part of the speaker? Again, the characteristics listed
in v. 4 sounds like a string of indicatives, statements of fact ("one who has
not done such and such"). But the context is one of non-factual
possibilities, not an actual description of a person. This is strengthened by
the fact that the subject of the verb comes in v. 5: יִשָּׂ֣א
(yissa'). Given the parallel with the yiqtol verbs in the question in v.3,
the verb indicates who would receive a blessing if he were to ascend. The
demonstrative זֶ֭ה (zeh) of v. 6, then, refers to this hypothetical
entity (whether it actually exists or not is beside the point). Thus, given
the context, v. 6 would also be a subjunctive.

A "subjunctive" translation of vv. 3-6 would be (roughly) as follows:

"Who >may< ascend Yhwh's hill?
and who may stand in his sanctuary?
One of innocent hands and a pure heart -
who hasn't lifted up my soul to nothing
nor sworn falsley -
>will< receive a blessing from Yhwh
and vindication from his saving God.
This one >would be< a generation that seeks,
that searches out your face, O Jacob."

Does this work?

The "may" expresses the personal desire to ascend (rather than "shall" or
"will"). The answer to the question is indirect. It is like a conditional
sentence (the "1st conditional"): "if he is this, he will do this." I have
other reasons for wanting to emphasise the subjunctivity of the section.

Philip Sumpter

http://narrativeandontology.blogspot.com/
>From kwrandolph AT gmail.com Tue Jun 23 14:45:44 2009
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From: K Randolph <kwrandolph AT gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Verb modes in Ps 24
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Phil:

XYDH didactic question, a riddle that has an implied message or
statement that one has to think about in order to get the message,
e.g. Judges 14, Samson killed the lion with his bare hands, therefore
his message was, “Don’t mess with me!” The Philistines got it,
imperfectly, as their subsequent actions showed. 1 Kings 10:1 the
Queen of Sheba tested Solomon with didactic questions, apparently to
hammer out trade issues.

We find more explicitly the didactic portion of the word in Proverbs
1:6 “to have insight into rules and public statements, the expressions
of the wise and their didactic questions.”

I see these questions in Psalm 24 as didactic questions.

Karl W. Randolph.

On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 10:59 AM, Phil Sumpter<philsumpter AT hotmail.com> wrote:
> Thank you Karl for your response.
>
> You said:
>
>>The questions follow the concept of a XYDH, a didactic question
>
> I've never heard of a "XYDH didactic question," I'd be grateful if you
> could clarify that for me.
>
>> The reason for the questions is to get people to think
>
> My issue is how do you know this? This conclusion seems to be based on an
> exegesis of the function of the Psalm as a whole, rather than an insight
> based on form. I've actually come to a different conclusion since writing
> my post (which just shows how confusing I find this!). This section (vv.
> 3-6) is part of a whole, surrounded my doxology/polemic and liturgical
> drama, replete with demands and "special keys." It seems as if there is
> more involved then simply didactics (in its present canonical context,
> apart from any supposed Wisdom school setting).
>
> I'll write my new thoughts in a separate post and would appreciate feedback.
>
>
> Philip Sumpter
>
> http://narrativeandontology.blogspot.com/




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