Biblical Hebrew Forum

[James Read <J.Read-2 AT sms.ed.ac.uk>]

Karl,

which vantage point do you suggest that Lot and Abraham used to decide  
which way to part company? This seems to be the only part of Jim's  
argument I can take seriously at the moment.

Jim,

may I make a suggestion. A part of good rhetoric is realising who your  
audience is and targetting your argument at them. Karl and I have made  
it clear what our views are on what you keep calling 'secular history'  
and on just how much value we attribute to 'scholarly opinion'. May I  
suggest that if you wish your argument to be taken seriously by either  
of us that you at least make an effort to acknowledge the problems  
associated with the sources you are relying on for what you keep  
insisting on calling 'secular history'. Karl has already made it clear  
to you that most of Egyptian history derives from a 3rd century priest  
whose main goal was proving that Egypt had a longer history than  
Greece. And I have linked to information about the problems with the  
transmission of that history. If you cannot acknowledge these problems  
and start treating the sources a little more scientifically it will be  
difficult to take your arguments seriously.

One other thing I would like to point out is this. Have you considered  
that maybe the identifications of places named in sources like the  
Aegyptiaca could also be suspect?

Also, as to why the regions near Sodom and Gomorah are now deserts  
whereas they were once fertile. Could the area having been burnt by  
sulphur have anything to do with it?

James Christian



Quoting K Randolph <kwrandolph AT gmail.com>:

> Jim:
>
> Just repeating yourself is not going to convince anyone.
>
> On Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 11:40 AM, <JimStinehart AT aol.com> wrote:
> > Karl:
> >
> > Let me briefly clarify my own view of %DYM, and then I will move on to
> > examine your views.
> “Briefly”?????
>
> > 1.  The articles I cited reflect the common scholarly view that %DYM derives
> > from %DD.
>
> How many times do I have to repeat that just because a view is the
> common scholarly view, that that fact in and of itself means nothing?
> That for you to assert it is a logical fallacy?
>
> >   %DD means to smooth down the furrows (break the clods) of a
> > recently plowed field, which is part of the overall process of plowing a
> > field and making it ready for planting.  We see %DD at Isaiah 28: 24, Job
> > 39: 10 and Hosea 10: 11.
> Definition is, “ to tear up and overturn (physically and
> figuratively), an action that when the object is dirt is defined as to
> furrow, plow, make into a field ”
>
> > To the best of my knowledge, there has never been a valley south of the Dead
> > Sea featuring fields that were plowed and harrowed, to which the Hebrew
> > words %DD and %DYM would apply.
>
> Those fields are there today. Can you imagine how many more there were
> in the Early Bronze Age before the area became a desert?
>
> > 2.  But now let’s move on to your proposed etymology of %DYM.  You see %DYM
> > as coming from %WD or %YD, meaning lime or whitewash.  Based on the Google
> > map of the area south and southeast of the Dead Sea, that big white spot on
> > the northern end of the Arabah, straight south (not southeast) of the Dead
> > Sea, could be redolent of %YD.  So I am deducing that on your view, the
> > “valley of %DYM” is the Arabah, straight south of the Dead Sea.
> Only that area “whitewashed” by the Dead Sea.
>
> > You have also stated, repeatedly, that in Abraham’s day, the Northern Negev
> > “Desert” was a nice savannah, nothing like the desolate area it is today.  I
> > am quite sure you agree with scholars that Genesis 14: 7 is reporting four
> > invading rulers making a series of conquests of thriving cities in the
> > Northern Negev.  In your view, the Northern Negev at that time was not a
> > desert, but rather was an attractive savannah.
> >
> > Do I have your views right?
> Partially.
> > The obvious question raised by your views is whether there is any support in
> > the secular history of the ancient world for seeing the Northern Negev and
> > the area southeast of the Dead Sea as being prosperous areas in the Bronze
> > Age, filled with large cities that had large, permanent buildings and many
> > people, and that had a very considerable amount of lootable wealth that
> > might well attract major league brigands like the four invading kings.  I
> > understand that sheep could be pastured in the Northern Negev at some times
> > in the ancient world.  And there certainly were oases southeast of the Dead
> > Sea.  But I myself know of nothing in secular history that suggests that
> > that part of the world was ever prosperous, ever had substantial cities,
> > ever boasted a large population, ever offered the soft city life desired by
> > Lot, or ever had any significant amount of lootable wealth (that would
> > attract invaders who, on the traditional view, are grand monarchs from
> > Mesopotamia and east of Mesopotamia).
> That’s because there was no “secular history” written at that time nor
> of that time, even the modern historians are dependent on the
> religious histories that were written, if any. As far as we can tell,
> your “secular histories” are a figment of your imagination.
> >
> We are not told what was the tribute sent to the higher kings, it
> could be that while the well watered areas provided a comfortable life
> for the people of Sodom and its sister cities, it provided little
> transportable tribute to send. That it took 13 years from the time
> Sodom and the surrounding areas stopped sending tribute until the king
> came indicates that this failure to pay tribute was low on his list of
> priorities. But to a wandering pastoralist like Lot, it provided a
> comfortable house near rich pastures for his livestock.
> > Jim Stinehart
> >
> > Evanston, Illinois
> Karl W. Randolph.
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