Biblical Hebrew Forum

["G. Zack" <atdgz AT hotmail.com>]

My comments were not in the context of Ya(aqob and there is no disagreement 
there.

It was rather the wider and sweeping scope of the claim "a personal name is 
not a grammatical structure" that I wished to address.

In fact, the opposite used to be the usual case, rather than the exception: 
"meaningless labels" , some "Abracadabra" as a name, were not common, nor is 
it easy to see how and why they could come about... An arbitrary lottery of 
syllables reached by some roulette?

Many, if not most names used to  include expression of hope or wishful 
thinking for what the parents hoped the bearer to beor become, properties 
they wisged him (or her) to possess, and/or in gratitude to a deity for the 
bearer's very coming about or, in general, in praise of the same.

At any rate, I think there are enough shared common grounds on this issue for 
us to drop it, unless, that is, there is adamant opposition to the above...

Gad Za"k

CC: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
From: if AT math.bu.edu
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Jacob-El
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 18:19:28 -0500
To: atdgz AT hotmail.com



It is indeed reasonable that the fraction YA of YA(AQOB is a remnant of a 
holly name and that the other fraction (AQOB is from the Hebrew root (QB. I 
suspect that even RAXEL and LEAH contain the lofty EL (but not EL-AL the 
Israeli national airlines). But this YA is certainly not the conventional 
grammatical marker "he will", with which YA(AQOB is to be understood as 
meaning he-will-do-the-act-(QB, and this is what I mean by a grammatically 
structured word. Why not? Because parents don't give their children idiotic 
names: And she called him Tickeli saying surely now that I bore him three 
sons my husband will tickle me regularly.
Isaac Fried, Boston University
On Jan 23, 2009, at 4:18 PM, G. Zack wrote:
Your initial statement was, should I say, sweeping: "... A Personal name is 
not  a grammatically structured word.".
This, of course, is not the fact.
Even the limitation to "early, biblical names" is overly restrictive. 
Certainly all names, royal or lay ending with "Yah" or commencing with "Yho" 
etc.,throughout the entire period covered by the bible, were meaningful 
structures. But not only.
Gad Za"kCC: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.orgFrom: if AT math.bu.eduSubject: Re: 
[b-hebrew] Jacob-ElDate: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 18:18:25 -0500To: atdgz AT hotmail.com


I am not sure what you are saying. Do you think that YICXAQ the son of SARAH 
is the Hebrew word: he will laugh, from the root CXQ? I would agree with you 
that, at least the early, biblical names include the names of foreign 
deities. It stands to reason that these names were deformed by latter editors 
of the bible, and were associated, as a cover up, with fanciful 
etymologies.Isaac Fried, Boston UniversityOn Jan 22, 2009, at 5:54 PM, G. 
Zack wrote:Isaac,I am amazed at your statement.Without citing a host of clear 
counter examples from the entire ancient Middle East (and for centuries later 
throughout Europe), let alone other, unrelated cultures, and as analyzed  in 
great detail by, e.g.,  experts of ancient Semite  languages (Cross, Alt and 
others) it is quite evident, as one common example,  that  names containing 
references to deities and their wishful or thanked-for "involvement" in the 
named individual's very-being abound (names containing il or )el, Yo, Ywo 
etc. as well as other deities, such as Ba'al etc.).Perhaps I miss the point. 
If you meant that a name is grammatically, linguistically not a sentence, 
this all will grant as self evident and fundamental truism of those 
disciplines.But if you deny intended meaningfulness in combining meaningful 
units into a single label of a meaningful positing of an idea etc.--I doubt 
anyone would support that.I'd rather believe that I missed your argument 
altogether...Gad Za"k From: if AT math.bu.eduDate: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 16:30:01 
-0500To: JimStinehart AT aol.comCC: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.orgSubject: Re: 
[b-hebrew] Jacob-ElSorry to say but it is all inherent nonsense. A Personal 
name is not  a grammatically structured word. In particular, YICXAQ is surely 
not  he will laugh, YA(AQOB has certainly nothing to do with heel, and R) 
UBEN has nothing to do with seeing a son.Isaac Fried, Boston UniversityOn Jan 
22, 2009, at 9:30 AM, JimStinehart AT aol.com wrote:
Isaac Fried wrote “Absolutely not” to the following statement by  Karl:  
“Thename found in the Bible is simply Y(QB, which is the imperfective  
grammaticalform of the verb "to be crooked" or "to deal crookedly" as in 
being  less thanhonest. A derivative of the same root refers to the ankle, 
the  permanentlycrooked part of the leg.”  [I will do a separate post later  
regarding Karl’snew post on this thread.]I myself see “heel” (not “ankle”) 
and “crooked” as being involved  with thename “Jacob”/Y(QB.  To the extent 
that Y(QB  s-o-u-n-d-e-d  like  “he actscrookedly”, even if the geographical 
place name Jacob-El/Y(QB-)L is  not in factconnected etymologically to 
“crooked” (but rather, as many scholars  think, isan old Amorite divine 
blessing), that would have been a good reason  for thetownspeople of that 
town in the Shephelah to drop the ayin/( in  their town’soriginal name.I 
found on the Internet a very nice account of the name “Jacob”,  written 
bysomeone who may be a colleague of our own Yigal Levin.  Here is how  Dr. 
AmosBar-da of Bar-Ilan University explains Jacob’s name:“When he was born, 
Jacob seized hold of Esau’s heel (Heb. ’akev),  hence hisname Ya’akov.  
Semantically, the word ‘akev’ ‘heel’ comes from thedepression that the heel 
creates when a footprint is made in the  ground.  The wordmeans a concavity 
or hollow, as in Isaiah (40:4):   “Let the rugged  ground (akov)become level 
and the ridges become a plain.”  The original meaning  of the root’-k-v 
refers to tangible, physical things:  the depression in the  ground andthe 
bone in the foot.  The root then evolved more abstractly in twodirections:   
1) in the sense of following sequentially, one thing  on the heel ofanother; 
2) in the sense of being distorted, crooked, circuitous  and devious.Indeed, 
from the point of view of Esau, Jacob’s name is derived not  from ‘heel’but 
from ‘devious plotting’:  (aoldb://mail/write/ template.htm#_ftn1) [1][1]“Was 
he, then, named Jacob that he might supplant me (’-k-v) these twotimes?   
First he took away my birthright and now he has taken away  my 
blessing!”(Gen. 27:36).“Grabbing Esau’s heel in birth and giving the name 
Ya’akov denotes thebeginning of a cycle of hostility between Jacob and his 
brother  Esau.  This cycleconcludes with a formative event in the history of 
Jacob’s life,  the episode inwhich Esau’s angel wrenches Jacob’s hip and 
gives him the name Israel.(aoldb://mail/write/template.htm#_ftn2) [1][2]   
The transition  from Esau’s heelto Jacob’s thigh and the transition from 
Esau’s view of Jacob as a  devious,crooked person, to the view of Jacob as 
Israel (in Hebrew, Israel  contains theroot y-š-r, ‘straight’) in a sense 
represents the idea in Isaiah  (40:4) thatthe “crooked shall become 
straight,” characteristic of Jacob’s life.”November 17, 
2008_http://www.biu.ac.il/JH/Parasha/eng/vayetze/amo.html_(http://www.biu.ac.il/JH/Parasha/eng/vayetze/amo.html)I
 think that the Y(QB element in “Jacob-El” unfortunately sounded  like 
“heacts crookedly”, regardless of the actual etymology of this  geographical 
placename.  As Robert Alter states at p. 181 of his 1996 book  “Genesis”:  
“Jacob,whose name can be construed as ‘he who acts crookedly’….”In my 
opinion, the association with the negative phrase “he acts  crookedly”was one 
reason why the townspeople of Jacob-El decided to drop the  ayin nearthe 
beginning of their town’s name.  Y(QB was simplified to YQB.   Instead 
ofsounding like “he acts crookedly”, it was now “winepress”.Jim 
StinehartEvanston, Illinois
____________________________________ 
(aoldb://mail/write/template.htm#_ftnref1) 
(aoldb://mail/write/template.htm#_ftnref2)
**************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in  just 2 
easysteps!(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1215855013x1201028747/aol? 
redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072% 
26hmpgID=62%26bcd=DecemailfooterNO62)_______________________________________________b-hebrew
 mailing 
listb-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.orghttp://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew
 _______________________________________________b-hebrew mailing 
listb-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.orghttp://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew
 _________________________________________________________________Hotmail® 
goes where you go. On a PC, on the Web, on your phone. 
http://www.windowslive-hotmail.com/learnmore/versatility.aspx#mobile?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_WL_HM_versatility_121208
 _______________________________________________b-hebrew mailing 
listb-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.orghttp://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew
 
_________________________________________________________________Windows 
Live™: E-mail. Chat. Share. Get more ways to connect. 
http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_allup_explore_012009_______________________________________________b-hebrew
 mailing 
listb-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.orghttp://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew
 

_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live™ Hotmail®:…more than just e-mail. 
http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_hm_justgotbetter_explore_012009