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  • From: Yigal Levin <leviny1 AT mail.biu.ac.il>
  • To: b-hebrew <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] d of z
  • Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 06:07:14 +0200

Hi Doug,

We really don't "know" who wrote any of the books of the Hebrew Bible, if by "know" you mean "have hard evidence". Of course, there are age-old traditions, which may or may not be historically accurate. But if we assume that the words recorded in Isaiah 1-39 (at least) were originally said by the prophet Isaiah son of Amoz, then judging by the events to which this Isaiah refers as what seems to be an eye-witness and the kings in whose reign he was active, he must have lived during the late 8th and early 7th centuries BCE. As far as Kings, the book we call Kings could not have existed in its present form before the latest event recorded in it, which brings us down to about 550 BCE. Of course, it could have been "written" much later then that, and it certainly went through later editing, but in any case, as I wrote, (first) Isaiah was originally written before Kings, so the "parallel" chapters were either copied from Isaiah to Kings, or added to Isaiah by a later redactor.


Yigal Levin


----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Belot" <dbelot AT bigpond.net.au>
To: "Yigal Levin" <leviny1 AT mail.biu.ac.il>
Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2008 12:37 AM
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] d of z


That is interesting that you say Kings was written after Isaiah , how do you
know that , and do we know who wrote Genisis , oh and I just thought with is
5 and songs , by the same melodything , it seems to me to be written in
similar style , say as when we hear a beatles song , or Abba , you can tell
that they have an indiviual style , this seems something like that, anyway
thanks , doug belot
----- Original Message ----- From: "Yigal Levin" <leviny1 AT mail.biu.ac.il>
To: "b-hebrew" <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2008 7:42 AM
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] d of z


Dear Doug,

I'm not sure what you mean by "corporate" here, but "D. of Z." is
obviously
a poetic term, used by prophets from the 8th century BCE onwards. Isaiah,
of
course, did not copy from Kings since he lived before Kings was written.
Either the author of Kings chose to copy parts of Isaiah, or a late
redactor
of the Book of Isaiah chose to copy these passages from Kings.

I'm not sure what you mean by Is 5:1-7 having "a melody in its prose
similar
to Songs of Solomon". Some of the imagery is similar, but the two are
actually quite different.

Yigal


----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Belot" <dbelot AT bigpond.net.au>
To: "Yigal Levin" <leviny1 AT mail.biu.ac.il>
Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 11:56 PM
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] d of z


Yigal it seems as tho the term d of z only comes into the Scriptures
after
2nd kgs 19:21 ,it does to me suggest a "youger generation" of Israelites
,
hence maybe the using terminolgy of "mother" and children , and d of z ,
I
am believing that here the term "Zion" is referring to corporate Israel ,
as
say in Is 49:14.and her daughters are the coming generations , which
would
make present day Jews corporate the "daughters of Zion" , it is used in
the
prophecies many many times .

Do you have any ideas on why Isaiah put 2nd kings 18:13-2nd kgs 19 as
chapters 36-37 in Isaiah , is there a litteral and non literal message
here
.

Plus , and this is a bit of a reach , but Is 5:1-7 seems to have a melody
in
its prose similar to Songs of Solomon , and is talking about "my Well
beloved" , similar to the Songs plea , say 2;16.

Ok thanks Yigal




----- Original Message ----- From: "Yigal Levin" <leviny1 AT mail.biu.ac.il>
To: "b-hebrew" <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 6:18 PM
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] d of z


Hello again Doug,

I think that the conventional reading of "daughter of Zion" is that it
always refers to either the city of Jerusalem, or to the
land/people/kingdom
of Judah as a whole. "Zion", as I'm sure you know, is a name for the
hill
on
which Jerusalem was built, the hill that we also call "Moriah" or "The
Temple Mount" (the use of "Zion" specifically for the western hill of
the
Old City that is common now is a Second Temple Period
misidentification).
I can't think off-hand of any case in which "daughter of Zion" refers to
"Israel" as a whole.

Yigal Levin



----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Belot" <dbelot AT bigpond.net.au>
To: <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 2:39 AM
Subject: [b-hebrew] d of z


Hi to all Hebrew scholars ,may I ask this question...

In 2nd Kgs 19:21 we see a reply from the LORD , to Sennacherib this way

2nd Kgs 19:21 The daughter of Zion has despised you , the daughter of
Jerusalem has shaken her head at you behind your back.

This verse is repeated in Is 37:22 , also we find the term "daughter of
Zion" used in many places , most obvious is Is 1:8 , Is 52:2 and Is
62:11
would I be out of ordert o consider that this "daughter" is a corporate
term for Israel / Judah , after the Rehoboam/Jeroboam split .

And could I thus be able to say that all such terminology was meant to
be
taken as corporate Israel , or is it splitting Jerusalem and Israel .

And as the term comes direct from the Lord could I thus think that this
is
a term that he now regards Israel as, the daughter of Zion/Jerusalem

Doug Belot
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  • Re: [b-hebrew] d of z, Yigal Levin, 10/10/2008
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          • Re: [b-hebrew] d of z, Yigal Levin, 10/12/2008

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