Biblical Hebrew Forum

["Doug Belot" <dbelot AT bigpond.net.au>]

I have been advised to send my question via this link ....ok , I give it a 
try...

Paul wrote in Rom 9:24-27 of the incoming gentiles as the sons of the living 
God , Paul  advises us that this is what God has planned , and that  Hosea 
had written of such a gentile inclusion, with Jews as well

Rom 9:24  even us who he called , not only the Jews , but also the gentiles 
also

Rom 9:24  "As he says in Hosea" 

That should get us to read what Hosea had said , which is in Hos 1:8-11 there 
we read of Lo-Ammi , the third child of Hosea and Gomer/God and Israel , this 
child is the "sons of the living God" .

>From that I am concluding that the Lo-Ammi , sons of the living God , is the 
>church , which then tells its mother(Israel) Hos 2:1-2, 

Hos 2;2  "Bring charges against your mother  for she is no longer My wife" .

However as we read on we see that from Hos 2:14-12  the mother/Israel is 
recalled , just as when she was called out of Egypt , v15  , she will again 
be "allured" back into a marriage with the Lord.

Thus we have the return of Israel , as the Lords wife , after the gentiles 
have been included as the "sons of the living God".

Do you Hebrew  experts  agree....

doug belot
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On 9 Oct 2008 at 17:39, JimStinehart AT aol.com wrote:

>
> Dave Washburn:
>
> You wrote:  "I'm not sure where you got the idea that the H- prefix would
> cause a
>  non-guttural to "drop out completely."  This is simply not the case.  There
> are two basic H- prefixes in biblical Hebrew, the article and the
> interrogative.  The interrogative has no effect at all on the consonant 
> that follows it,
> while the article causes the following consonant to double, i.e. far from
> assimilating or dropping out, it actually strengthens.  This is why we have 
> no less
> than 35 examples of HY$R ranging from Deuteronomy to Micah.  So this
> hypothesis breaks down at the very first step, and anything built on this 
> step or
> corollary to it is likewise invalid."
>
> 1.  Before we get to your examples of HY$R, let me first point out that when
> H/he is not a prefix (or separate word) meaning "the", there are only 12
> Hebrew words in one of the dictionaries I consult where H/he is followed by 
> Y/yod,
> and several of those words are of foreign origin.  Thus HY/he-yod at the
> beginning of  Hebrew word, where the H/he does not mean "the", is not very
> common, although there are 12 words like that.  I know you are not 
> referring to that
> situation, but it´s perhaps worth noting in passing.  Those 12 words do not
> include a single geographical place name, and it is geographical places 
> names
> that are my concern.  Moreover, not a single such word begins with HY$, 
> which
> is the case we are discussing in particular.

We can infer a couple of things  from this data: first, Hebrew words that 
begin with H at all
are rare, most being loanwords; second, no place names begin with HY.  In the 
present
context, both inferences are meaningless.

> 2.  What you are referring to is Y$R, which in 35 cases, you assert, is
> preceded by the word H/he meaning "the".  In particular, I think you are
> referencing Deuteronomy 6: 18, where Y$R means "straight" or "right" or 
> "right (thing)
> ".  Deuteronomy 6: 18 admonishes us to do H + Y$R or HY$R, that is, do "the
> right (thing)".  There the word/prefix/article H/he/"the" appears before a
> noun that begins with yod/Y, and the yod/Y remains in place, not being 
> swallowed
> by the he/H.  I presume that you have identified 34 additional instances 
> like
> this.  Is that what you are saying?

Correct.  But bear in mind also that I said there are only two H-prefixes in 
biblical Hebrew.
Put this with the fact, as you stated, that Hebrew didn't make a habit of 
beginning "regular"
words with H, and we conclude that virtually all Hebrew words and expressions 
beginning
with H- are either words with the article or words  with the interrogative.

> I should not have used the word "swallowed".  I stand corrected.  What I
> should have said is that in geographical places names, unlike in other 
> instances,
> a he/H + a root word that begins with a yod/Y may result in the root word
> being abridged, and losing the yod/Y.  That is the standard analysis of how 
> the
> word "the Sharon (Plain)" came about.

This is what's known as "special pleading" and I have yet to see such 
pleading pan out.  If
you're going to claim special pleading for behavior "in geographical places 
names, unlike
other instances," you're going to have to go a LONG way toward proving it.  
It's not enough
just to claim it.

> Thank you for pointing out that this is not a general grammatical phenomenon
> in Biblical Hebrew.  But I do see it as happening with H + Y$R + WN coming 
> out
> as H$RWN, where we are dealing with a geographical place name.

So you agree it doesn't happen, but say it did happen here.  Have I got that 
straight?

> 3.  I am quite sure that there is not a single Hebrew geographical place 
> name
> in the entire Bible whose first two letters are he-yod/HY, where the he/H
> does not mean "the".

This does not help your argument.

> Moving now to he/H as a prefix in a geographical place name, I see no such
> example where the first two letters in the root word are Y$.  Nehemiah 11: 
> 26
> has Y$V( as a geographical place name, but it is not preceded by a he/H.  II
> Chronicles 13: 19 has Y$NH as a geographical place name, but it is not 
> preceded
> by a he/H.

There's that "special pleading" again; we haven't established that there is 
such  a thing as
"he/H as a prefix in a geographical place name."

> I see no other geographical place names that begin with Y$.  So I see not a
> single instance in the Hebrew Bible where a he/H precedes a geographical 
> place
> name that starts Y$.  As stated in my post, Y$R is generally seen as being 
> the
> root of "the Sharon (Plain)"/H + $RWN or H$RWN, where the yod/Y has
> disappeared.

"Generally" meaning what?  Gesenius and Strong?  Or do you have other more 
current
sources?

> Of course, "Israel" starts with Y&.  The word "Israel" appears almost 2,500
> times in the Bible, so I cannot check every instance.  However, in the
> instances I looked at, I did not see "Israel" preceded by the word 
> he/H/"the".

Also meaningless.

> So if "the Sharon (Plain)" were spelled HY$RWN, that might be the only
> geographical place name in the Bible where H/he precedes Y$.
>
> My point is that a geographical place name is different than the Hebrew
> common word Y$R.  HY$R is commonplace as meaning "the right (thing)".  I 
> agree.
> But by stark contrast, I myself have not seen any geographical place name 
> that
> starts HY$, even if the H/he is a separate word meaning "the":  H + Y$.  I
> may have overlooked it, but I have never seen it.

We're not getting anywhere here.  This is not evidence backing up the theory, 
it's merely
restatement of the theory.

> Do you know of a geographical place name whose first three letters are HY$ 
> or
> H +Y$?  If not, I do not see how your example of HY$R invalidates my point,
> since HY$R is not a geographical place name.

I haven't actually looked, since I don't see why place names require any kind 
of special
pleading.

> 4.  Do you disagree with the standard explanation of "the Sharon (Plain)"
> that I set forth?  Here is how Gesenius explains it:
>
> "$RWN, for Y$RWN, `plain´, `plain country´, every where with the article H"
> .
>
> Strong´s is comparable, explaining $RWN as "prob. abridged from 3474", where
> 3474 is Y$R.
>
> How do you explain the derivation of $RWN, which often appears as H$RWN?  
> Are
> you saying that both Gesenius and Strong´s are in error here?

Gesenius is badly outdated, and I have serious problems with Strong.  If you 
have other
more current sources, I would like to know what they are so I can check them 
out.  As for
how I explain the derivation of $RWN, I don't.  I leave that to 
lexicographers like Karl.  I'm
just a grammarian.

> I should not have used the word "swallowed", which is misleading.  What I
> should have said is that in the geographical place name "the Sharon 
> (Place)",
> the yod/Y at the beginning of the root word gets dropped, and that word is
> often preceded by he/H meaning "the".
>
> 5.  Of course, my real concern is the geographical place name "Hebron",
> which begins with a heth/X, not a he/H.  But if you think that I 
> misunderstand
> what is going on regarding H + Y$R + WN  =  H$RWN  =  "the level place"  =  
> "the
> Sharon (Plain)", please let me know.  I see the root as being Y$R, where the
> Y/yod has disappeared in this geographical place name, as the H/he prefix is
> added.  I myself know of no geographical place name whose first three 
> letters
> are either H + Y$ or HY$.

Let me see if I'm following this.  The H- prefix isn't the article and it 
isn't the interrogative,
but some heretofore-unknown prefix that applies only to geographical names, 
and even then
only to certain specific geographical names, even though those certain 
specific
geographical names are the only evidence that can be adduced for this 
heretofore-unknown
prefix.  How am I doing?

In a response to Karl, you also wrote:

> I maintain that -WN means "place" when it appears at the end of a 
> geographical place
> name.  In those cases, -WN is a suffix meaning "place", and is not part of
> the root word.  I do not dispute that words that are not geographical place 
> names
> may end in WN.  What I am asserting, rather, is that geographical place 
> names,
> like "Hebron" and "Sharon", that end in      -WN feature a root plus the
> suffix -WN, where the final WN means "place".

When we boil this down to its essence, it means "When it's in a place name 
it's a suffix that
means 'place.'  When it's not, it isn't."  I'm afraid that's not much to go 
on, and once again
amounts to special pleading.  Sorry, but I'm just not buying it.

Dave Washburn
"I'll hold the nail.  And when I nod my head, you hit it with the hammer."