Biblical Hebrew Forum

[Ron Snider <sarasotapt AT comcast.net>]

I would assume that the NOW is simply the translators take on the VAV at 
the beginning of the verse.  I agree with you that BARA' is normally 
used in the singular.  However, your possibility (however plausible) 
would need some more definitive proof IMHO.  I still do not see any 
justification for bringing in ancestors here, when the clear context 
concerns the reality of youth and the recognition that God will judge 
all actions.  Further, I see no usage of it in the Qal to refer to human 
creators.

Ron Snider

Isaac Fried wrote:

> Ron,
>
>
> I see that the KJV translates the first part of Ecclesiastes 12:1 as
>
> "Remember now thy Creator in the days of thy youth"
>
> First I notice that the translator sneaks in the word "now" not found 
> in the Hebrew text. Then I see that he translates BOR)-EY-KA as "thy 
> Creator" rather than "thy Creators", which is an outright 
> falsification of the Hebrew text, unless he had before him a different 
> version. The HB grandly opens with BRE)$IT BARA) ELOHIM, with BARA) in 
> the singular not BAR)U in the plural.
>
> No wonder Pere is puzzled by this business of remembering the Creator(s).
>
> I do not think I need to prove anything; all I do is just raise a 
> plausible [to me] possibility, which you may or may not accept. 
>
> Otherwise, the BARE) of Ezekiel 21:24 is possibly just 'erect, 
> produce'. Recall ,ZAKOR, also the BR) of Joshua 17:15, and the root of 
> BARI), 'well formed', of Judges 3:17.
>
>
> Isaac Fried, Boston University
>
>
> On Apr 22, 2008, at 12:33 PM, Ron Snider wrote:
>
> > > I am not in the habit of looking at foreign translations of the HB.  
> > > In my Qoren edition of the TN"K the word BOR)-EY-KA is written with a  
> > > yod [so also in the Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia] and I see it as  
> > > plural. Indeed, "Remember your Creator in the days of your youth"  
> > > does not make as much sense as "Keep in mind your forebears [some  
> > > old, some dead] in the days of your youth".
> > > I would relate this BR) to the BAR, 'son, child', of Proverbs 31:2
> >
> > I do agree that the participle is plural, other than than I disagree 
> > completely with the rest of your response.  First, the Qal stem is only 
> > used of the creative activity of God in the OT.  Second, the plural may 
> > well be plural since Elohiym is plural.  Third, the term is never used 
> > in the Qal of human creations, which rules out the idea of forebears.  
> > Fourth, immediate context from the previous verses suggests that this is 
> > advice to a young person with respect to how he lives his life and the 
> > fact that God will ultimately judge every action.  Fifth, remembering 
> > your forbears has nothing to do with whether or not one grows old and 
> > enjoys life, Solomon has already stated repeatedly in this book that 
> > real life comes from God.  Eccles. 2:25-26, 5:18-20, 7:14, 9:1,9
> >
> > Lastly, while you may not feel the need to consult other translations, 
> > when you digress dramatically from the orthodox understanding of a 
> > verse, the burden of proof is on you to document your assertions.  One 
> > cannot merely say that the word means something and expect others to 
> > simply accept it without proof.  Since this term only appears in the Qal 
> > partciple plural one time, proof is probably not available.
> >
> > Respectfully,
> >
> > Ron Snider,
> > Pastor-teacher
> >
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