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  • From: Isaac Fried <if AT math.bu.edu>
  • To: JoeWallack AT aol.com
  • Cc: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
  • Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Definite Article 7:14
  • Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 20:53:10 -0400

Joseph,

I am afraid that the discussion is vague and aimless because of the lack for a clear criterion for what is meant by "definite". Is there a test for definiteness? and what does "indefinite" mean? One may argue that definiteness is knowledge, but knowledge comes by degrees, and is often imperfect.

Isaac Fried, Boston University

On Jul 8, 2007, at 5:03 PM, JoeWallack AT aol.com wrote:


In a message dated 6/25/2007 7:50:26 AM Central Daylight Time,
peter AT qaya.org writes:

Seriously, and if we are talking translation rather than exegesis, it
doesn't work in English to translate "the young woman", or "the virgin".
According to English usage of the article, this would imply a young
woman previously identified in the text, and there is no such young
woman, so the sentence is effectively ungrammatical. In English we have
to say "a young woman", or perhaps "this young woman" referring to only
one present at the time although not previously mentioned - which is a
possible understanding of the Hebrew article.

I say this despite many English translations using "the" here.




JW:
Sorry about the delay. I had to take the bus to pick up the cat from the vet
at the veterinary shop. Than I took the bus to drop off the paper on the use
of the Hebrew definite article with the Professor at the University. What you
wrote above reminds me of the classic line from Ghostbusters, "Actually,
it's more of a guideline than a rule."

Again, the starting point here is what is being communicated in the Hebrew.
We all seem to agree that the Hebrew definite article is the Hebrew definite
article and almost always, if not always, communicates something definite in
the Hebrew. By usage we know that the overwhelming English translation is
"the" so you would need a compelling reason not to use "the". As I've indicated
by example above, your point above is not an English rule in any case and
easily countered by specific contexts.

You are also proof-texting as you haven't even considered the full context
of 7:14 here. If I claimed at this point that the combination of use of the
Hebrew definite article along with a prophecy to the immediate Hebrew audience
forces a translation of "the" ( a position that a relatively high percent of
correspondents here probably have) and the proper question than is not whether
"the/a" is the proper translation but rather if "a" is even a possible
translation, you would be likewise unimpressed.

As to existing translations, until modern times, Jewish translations
generally had "the" while Christian translations generally had "a" suggesting that
religious affiliation was the most important factor in the translation. This
polemical war has already been fought and won/lost though as the majority of
Christian translations now have "the", including the NKJV. Interestingly, the
NASB translators decided on "young woman" for 7:14 but were vetoed by the
American Bishops who retained "virgin". This is why I don't find authority
authoritative here.



Joseph Wallack




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