Biblical Hebrew Forum

["Vadim Cherny" <VadimCherny AT mail.ru>]

dkr in Zech12:10 undoubtedly refers to thrusting with sword. Always took
that for granted. The nations that cut him [Israel] (came against Jerusalem)
will repent.

I'm less familiar with the Christian issues, but I frankly don't see how you
could read ca-ari in Ps22:17 as "pierced."
As a lion [they have encompassed (transposition from the earlier phrase)] my
hands and feet.

Vadim Cherny

>   Recently I have been reviewing the very interesting Psalm 22
discussions.
> A few threads over the years.
>
> Psalm 22:16 (KJB)
> For dogs have compassed me:
> the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me:
> they pierced my hands and my feet.
>
>    In this post I would like to offer one small but hopefully interesting
point.
>
>    Often it is said that Zechariah 12:10 gives us another word for
"pierced" that could
> be used in Psalm 22 if a verb was meant there.  This is all over the
anti-mish web sites
> and is mentioned occasionally here.
>
>     Some of this is based on the fact that in the verse Zechariah 12:10
> dqr is often translated as "pierced".
>
> Zechariah 12:10  (KJB)
> And I will pour upon the house of David,
> and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem,
> the spirit of grace and of supplications:
> and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced,  ***
> and they shall mourn for him,
> as one mourneth for his only son,
> and shall be in bitterness for him,
> as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
>
>      However the semantic range of daqar is a piercing of a very specific
type,
> in the Tanach.  This word is used again and again for a thrusting-through
sword thrust.
>
>     Here are the Tanach usages of the word used in Zechariah 12:10, daqar.
> Notice how consistent they are, generally with the meaning of
"thrust-through"
> from weaponry, with one usage (Lamentations) being an analogy.
>
> Numbers 25:8
> And he went after the man of Israel into the tent,
> and thrust both of them through, the man of Israel,
> and the woman through her belly.
> So the plague was stayed from the children of Israel.
>
> Judges 9:54
> Then he called hastily unto the young man his armourbearer,
> and said unto him, Draw thy sword, and slay me,
> that men say not of me, A woman slew him.
> And his young man thrust him through, and he died
>
> 1Samuel 31:4
> Then said Saul unto his armourbearer,
> Draw thy sword, and thrust me through therewith;
> lest these uncircumcised come and thrust me through, and abuse me.
> But his armourbearer would not; for he was sore afraid.
> Therefore Saul took a sword, and fell upon it.
>
> 1Chronicles 10:4
> Then said Saul to his armourbearer,
> Draw thy sword, and thrust me through therewith;
> lest these uncircumcised come and abuse me.
> But his armourbearer would not; for he was sore afraid.
> So Saul took a sword, and fell upon it.
>
> Isaiah 13:15
> Every one that is found shall be thrust through;
> and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword
>
> Zechariah 13:3
> And it shall come to pass, that when any shall yet prophesy,
> then his father and his mother that begat him shall say unto him,
> Thou shalt not live; for thou speakest lies in the name of the LORD:
> and his father and his mother that begat him shall thrust
> him through when he prophesieth.
>
> Jeremiah 51:4
> Thus the slain shall fall in the land of the Chaldeans,
> and they that are thrust through in her streets.
>
> Now these two have a bit of nuance:
>
> Lamentations 4:9
> They that be slain with the sword are better than they
> that be slain with hunger: for these pine away,
> stricken through for want of the fruits of the field.
>
> Jeremiah 37:10
> For though ye had smitten the whole army of the Chaldeans
> that fight against you,
> and there remained but wounded men among them,
> yet should they rise up every man in his tent,
> and burn this city with fire.
>
> =====================================================
>
> This understanding is shown in Zechariah 12:10 in the -
>
> Judaica Press Tanach
>
> Zechariah 12:10
> And I will pour out upon the house of David
> and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem
> a spirit of grace and supplications.
> And they shall look to me
> because of those who have been thrust through [with swords],
> and they shall mourn over it
> as one mourns over an only son
> and shall be in bitterness, therefore,
> as one is embittered over a firstborn son.
>
> (the subject/object pronoun discussion is a separate issue :) )
> Similarly
>
> JPS-1917
>
> And I will pour upon the house of David,
> and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem,
> the spirit of grace and of supplication;
> and they shall look unto Me
> because they have thrust him through;
> and they shall mourn for him,
> as one mourneth for his only son,
> and shall be in bitterness for him,
> as one that is in bitterness for his first-born.
>
> Soncino
>
> And I will pour upon the house of David,
> And upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem,
> The spirit of grace and of supplication;
> And they shall unto Me
> because they have thrust him through;
>
> So if this is the case, that daqar is a word used for a type of sword or
spear
> thrusting-through (implications of mortal or ultra-serious wound through
the belly)
> it would appear to be a very poor fit for any verbal reading of Psalm 22.
>
> Your thoughts ?
>
> (Yes, I realize that there are other words also given for pierced
alternatives,
>  however daqar is in a sense the primary discussion and significant).
>
> Shalom,
> Steven Avery
> Queens, NY
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic
>
> ==============================================
> PROPHECY SIDENOTE
>
>  From a Christian perspective, this would also support a separation of
Psalm 22 from -
>
> John 19:34-37
> But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced* his side,
> and forthwith came there out blood and water.
> And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true:
> and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe.
> For these things were done,
> that the scripture should be fulfilled,
> A bone of him shall not be broken.
> And again another scripture saith,
> They shall look on him whom they pierced.
>
>  (* nusso, a hapax)
>
> Where John specifically references two verses, Zechariah 12:10 and
>
> Psalm 34:20
> He keepeth all his bones: not one of them is broken.
>
> Yet not Psalm 22.
>
> ======================================================
>
> Psalm 22 would more directly relate to ...
>
> Luke 24:39
> Behold my hands and my feet,
> that it is I myself:
> handle me, and see;
> for a spirit hath not flesh and bones,
> as ye see me have.
>
> John 20:25
> The other disciples therefore said unto him,
> We have seen the Lord.
> But he said unto them,
> Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails,
> and put my finger into the print of the nails,
> and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
>
> John 20:27
> Then saith he to Thomas,
> Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands;
> and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side:
> and be not faithless, but believing.
>
>
>