Biblical Hebrew Forum

["Read, James C" <K0434995 AT kingston.ac.uk>]

These are extremely interesting arguments you are giving and something 
I have myself considered but never properly investigated.

Do you know of any recorded material I can get so that I can listen to 
these psalms as they should be rythmically pronounced?

Also, I am interested in what your research has uncovered about the age 
of the psalms. Have you found any agreement/discrepancies in the traditional
ages of the individual psalms when applying your musical evidences as 
a dating technique?

I ask these questions out of genuine interest.

-----Original Message-----
From: b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org on behalf of Rochelle Altman
Sent: Sun 1/15/2006 7:04 AM
To: Peter Kirk
Cc: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] music in Hebrew [was Re: Long: *Some* Bib for Bryan]
 
At 01:16 AM 1/15/2006, Peter Kirk wrote:

>>...
>>
>>That's the point; if it is postulated that CVC did not occur until 
>>post-exilic times, then we have to add the vowel to "l-" ... It's why I 
>>included the "l-"    Technically, on the same grounds I should have 
>>included a vowel for "b" in the 29th.
>
>I think you have missed my point. If the alef in l-'adonay(a) is silent, 
>we have la-do-na-ya, all CV syllables. You also have a non-permitted 
>consonant cluster in "ha-artza" (even taking "tz" as one consonant), oddly 
>considering that there isn't one in the Masoretic Hebrew; this needs to be 
>something like ha-aratza.

IF the alef is silent, yes. Was it? The alef had better not be silent in 
the 23rd, for instance.
Here we have a clearly marked three syllable "a-do-nai."  Shall we change 
the psalm formula to be  "silent-do-nai" opening the song to prove that (1) 
yhvh is two-syllables and (2) Hebrew -- unlike Aramaic, had no tendency 
whatsoever to lose final weak vowels? The same psalm formula is used in the 
33rd... three syllable opening. (It's also the formula for Shir Ha-Shirim.)

That is what a bilingual is for; cross-checks. Adonai is three syllables in 
every occurrence by cross-checks in the Psalter. It sure is in the 23rd -- 
nary a particle in sight -- and that does raise a very big "if" that the 
alef was silent.

Now I know from research how many commentators like to amend the text of 
the 23rd to meet expectations -- for instance, Kraus -- who, for example, 
thinks that "na'ot" in "na'ot deshe" should be deleted as he feels it ruins 
the meter. Problem: "na'ot" just happens to be the noun; deshe the modifier 
-- it describes what kind of na'ot. Chop out the noun; who needs it.. It 
reins the postulated 4/4 beat.

Then, I said that I wrote as pronounced, not M-C. "tz" is, of course, one 
consonant... I just couldn't get myself to write haaratza. It throws off a 
very regular meter -- indeed, the very regularity of meter in the 
translations of Psalms 100-150 in this Psalter gave it the name of the 
"Metrical Psalms."

Please note that we need the first and last verses to reconstruct the music 
of a psalm. The Psalm formula is given in the first verse. The Psalm 
formula is also what tells us whether we are dealing with Sephardic, 
Ashkenazic, or Yemenite versions of the Psalms. The melodies in that 
Psalter are Sephardic and they are also at the original, pre-Neo-Platonic 
tempi. This is hardly surprising considering the age of the consonantal 
vorlage used, but it does mean that we have yet another linguistic trap to 
watch out for.

I've run out of time.

Regards,

Rochelle Altman

>--
>Peter Kirk
>peter AT qaya.org (personal)
>peterkirk AT qaya.org (work)
>http://www.qaya.org/

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Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] music in Hebrew [was Re: Long: *Some* Bib for Bryan]
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On 15/01/2006 07:04, Rochelle Altman wrote:

> At 01:16 AM 1/15/2006, Peter Kirk wrote:
>
>>> ...
>>>
>>> That's the point; if it is postulated that CVC did not occur until
>>> post-exilic times, then we have to add the vowel to "l-" ... It's
>>> why I included the "l-"    Technically, on the same grounds I should
>>> have included a vowel for "b" in the 29th.
>>
>>
>> I think you have missed my point. If the alef in l-'adonay(a) is
>> silent, we have la-do-na-ya, all CV syllables. You also have a
>> non-permitted consonant cluster in "ha-artza" (even taking "tz" as
>> one consonant), oddly considering that there isn't one in the
>> Masoretic Hebrew; this needs to be something like ha-aratza.
>
>
> IF the alef is silent, yes. Was it? The alef had better not be silent
> in the 23rd, for instance.
> Here we have a clearly marked three syllable "a-do-nai."  Shall we
> change the psalm formula to be  "silent-do-nai" opening the song to
> prove that (1) yhvh is two-syllables and (2) Hebrew -- unlike Aramaic,
> had no tendency whatsoever to lose final weak vowels? The same psalm
> formula is used in the 33rd... three syllable opening. (It's also the
> formula for Shir Ha-Shirim.)


My point was a simple one. In the Masoretic pointing, alef in 'adonay
becomes silent (as shown by having no point of any sort under it)
following prefixes like l- and b-. The evidence for this is from places
where 'adonay is written explicitly e.g. Genesis 18:32; Psalm 22:31;
73:28; 130:6; Isaiah 22:5; 28:2; Jeremiah 46:10,10; 50:25; Daniel 9:9;
Malachi 1:14. In fact the same contraction is also used before 'adoni
"my lord" e.g. Genesis 32:5; 44:9,16,16,33; 1 Samuel 24:7,11;
25:27,28,30,31,31; 2 Samuel 4:8; 18:28; 19:29; 1 Kings 1:2,2; 18:13;
20:9; 1 Chronicles 21:3; Psalm 110:1. But this alef is not always elided
in the MT e.g. before 'adone (plural construct) Psalm 136:6.

Now of course we don't know whether this alef was elided in the same way
after l- in the earlier time we are talking of, when Hebrew had only CV
syllables. But we should at least allow for the possibility, which would
imply that 'adonay is three syllables, or four allowing for a final
vowel, and that la'donay was exactly the same.

--
Peter Kirk
peter AT qaya.org (personal)
peterkirk AT qaya.org (work)
http://www.qaya.org/