Biblical Hebrew Forum

["Read, James C" <K0434995 AT kingston.ac.uk>]

Ezekiel 4:1-7

-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Kirk [mailto:peterkirk AT qaya.org]
Sent: Mon 9/19/2005 12:38 AM
To: Read, James C
Cc: yitzhaksapir AT gmail.com; b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Chronology & time of the exodus
 
On 18/09/2005 12:54, Read, James C wrote:

>Dear Yitzhak,
> 
>In order to build a chronology we need a reference point which is well 
>established. Let's use the 
>return from exile, which took place in 537. The desolation took place 70 
>years earlier and that 
>takes us back to 607. Ezekiel tells us (in prophetic language) that the 
>division of the kingdoms of 
>Isreal and Judah took place 390 years earlier. ...
>

What is your evidence for this 390 years? I ask from genuine interest.

>... This brings us to 997. Solomon reigned 40 years and 
>begun temple construction in his 3rd year. So the temple began to be built 
>in 1034. 1Ki6:1 tells us that 
>the temple began to be built in the 480th year after the exodus. This takes 
>us to 1513. 430 years earlier 
>Yah struck a deal with Abraham, 1943. Adding up the generations back to the 
>flood we get 427 years 
>and this places the flood at 2370. Then you just add up the generations 
>again and this takes you back 
>to our great, great, great, great ...grandad Adam who was born in 4026, 
>approx 6 thousand years ago.
> 
>Of course, I would welcome you criticisms as it would help me to gain a 
>better understanding of 
>this chronology.
> 
>  
>
I would recommend that you look at the chronological work of E. Thiele, 
e.g. in "The Mysterious Numbers of the Hebrew Kings".

-- 
Peter Kirk
peter AT qaya.org (personal)
peterkirk AT qaya.org (work)
http://www.qaya.org/



-- 
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.1/104 - Release Date: 16/09/2005


This email has been scanned for all viruses by the MessageLabs Email
Security System.


This email has been scanned for all viruses by the MessageLabs Email
Security System.
>From k0434995 AT kingston.ac.uk  Mon Sep 19 03:51:26 2005
Return-Path: <k0434995 AT kingston.ac.uk>
X-Original-To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Delivered-To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Received: from mail70.messagelabs.com (mail70.messagelabs.com
        [193.109.255.115])
        by lists.ibiblio.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 793764C005
        for <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>; Mon, 19 Sep 2005 03:51:26 -0400 
(EDT)
X-VirusChecked: Checked
X-Env-Sender: k0434995 AT kingston.ac.uk
X-Msg-Ref: server-9.tower-70.messagelabs.com!1127116284!80974623!1
X-StarScan-Version: 5.4.15; banners=kingston.ac.uk,-,-
X-Originating-IP: [141.241.2.18]
Received: (qmail 22585 invoked from network); 19 Sep 2005 07:51:25 -0000
Received: from kuexim2.king.ac.uk (141.241.2.18)
        by server-9.tower-70.messagelabs.com with SMTP;
        19 Sep 2005 07:51:25 -0000
Received: from [141.241.17.18] (helo=KUDBEX01.kuds.kingston.ac.uk)
        by kuexim2.king.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1EHGQu-00042k-Hs
        for b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org; Mon, 19 Sep 2005 08:51:24 +0100
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0
Content-class: urn:content-classes:message
MIME-Version: 1.0
Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 08:50:52 +0100
Message-ID: 
<6B84A53BD25BCA46B070A05DD8C8C9F874EEA7 AT KUDBEX01.kuds.kingston.ac.uk>
X-MS-Has-Attach:
X-MS-TNEF-Correlator:
Thread-Topic: [b-hebrew] Raamses
Thread-Index: AcW8dlVbarFo8KisRjexfgMinlnAFQAeIZBM
From: "Read, James C" <K0434995 AT kingston.ac.uk>
To: <yitzhaksapir AT gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
        charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.6
Cc: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Raamses
X-BeenThere: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6
Precedence: list
List-Id: Hebrew Bible List <b-hebrew.lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew>,
        <mailto:b-hebrew-request AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/b-hebrew>
List-Post: <mailto:b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Help: <mailto:sympa AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=HELP>
List-Subscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew>,
        <mailto:b-hebrew-request AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 07:51:26 -0000



 Am I to understand that you are a jew that does not believe in the
 exodus? Yet give such honour to Redford? This really is remarkable!
 
 That would be like meeting a Christian that does not believe in
 salvation yet gives full credence to the Da Vinci Code book.
 
 Anyway, I didn't Raamses in the 10th century and your misunderstanding
 on this is based on a (bad) interpretation of what I wrote. I was saying
 that both a date of tenth century for the exodus and the concurrent pharoah
 being RaamsesII were demonstrably false. That you tie the two together
 is your own perogative but not what I intended you to understand.
 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org on behalf of Yitzhak Sapir
> Sent: Sun 9/18/2005 3:11 PM
> To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
> Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Raamses
> 
> On 9/18/05, Read, James C wrote:
> > Dear Yitzhak,
> >
> > Raamses II is accredited to being of the 13th century. His name means
> > begotten of Ra (the son god) i.e. Ra's son. It was believed that he was
> > the pharoah of the exodus based on inscriptions claiming that he built
> > the city of the same name by use of slavery. However, this assumption
> > is weak because the city he built (per-ramses) was described as the
> > capital city of his time and as such should not be connected with the
> > mere storage place of the biblical ramses. Furthermore, the exodus
> > (circa 1513) happened 200 -300 years before his reign and so the
> > exodus could not have started from a city which had not even been built
> > yet.
> 
> I am not interested in discussing the historicity of the Exodus, and don't
> think it would contribute much to the list.  I don't think there is a 
> suitable
> historical background which can be applied to the Exodus.  Nevertheless,
> I'm glad you looked up the date of Ramesses now, and also that you
> quote Redford.
> 
> The following link describes the viewpoint that the Exodus occurred in the
> 13th century.  Generally, I had been aware of reasons 3 - 7 as those
> given for such a dating:
> 
> http://www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=1&t=272&m=1
> 
> Again, don't discuss this with me.  If you want, I suggest you contact
> the author of that post yourself.  I see he's posted recently to that
> board.
> 
> > D.B Redford comments 'Biblical Raamses and the capital Pr
> > R'-ms-sw, apart from the personal name, seem to have nothing in
> > common. In the lack of corroborative evidence it is absolutely essential
> > to exercise caution in equating the two' (Vetus Testamentum, Leiden,
> > page 410, 1963
> 
> This is just great that you quote Redford.  Redford also apparently deals
> with the subject in his "Egypt, Canaan and Israel in Ancient Times"
> (1992), and in an article in "Exodus: The Egyptian Evidence" (1997).
> I haven't read either, but here is a review that you might find useful of 
> the
> second: http://www.denverseminary.edu/dj/articles1998/0100/0113.php
> 
> As for your chronology, usually Solomon is dated to the mid 10th century
> based on synchronism with Shoshenq's attack 5 years after his reign. It
> is also possible to count the reigns of the kings from Solomon onwards.
> But this is not the place to get into chronological issues.
> 
> Yitzhak Sapir

This email has been scanned for all viruses by the MessageLabs Email
Security System.
>From k0434995 AT kingston.ac.uk  Mon Sep 19 03:57:53 2005
Return-Path: <k0434995 AT kingston.ac.uk>
X-Original-To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Delivered-To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Received: from mail57.messagelabs.com (mail57.messagelabs.com
        [195.245.230.115])
        by lists.ibiblio.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 28A944C005
        for <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>; Mon, 19 Sep 2005 03:57:52 -0400 
(EDT)
X-VirusChecked: Checked
X-Env-Sender: k0434995 AT kingston.ac.uk
X-Msg-Ref: server-12.tower-57.messagelabs.com!1127116670!86953513!1
X-StarScan-Version: 5.4.15; banners=kingston.ac.uk,-,-
X-Originating-IP: [141.241.2.18]
Received: (qmail 2704 invoked from network); 19 Sep 2005 07:57:50 -0000
Received: from kuexim2.king.ac.uk (141.241.2.18)
        by server-12.tower-57.messagelabs.com with SMTP;
        19 Sep 2005 07:57:50 -0000
Received: from [141.241.17.18] (helo=KUDBEX01.kuds.kingston.ac.uk)
        by kuexim2.king.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1EHGX8-00043s-8f
        for b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org; Mon, 19 Sep 2005 08:57:50 +0100
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0
Content-class: urn:content-classes:message
MIME-Version: 1.0
Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 08:57:48 +0100
Message-ID: 
<6B84A53BD25BCA46B070A05DD8C8C9F874EEA8 AT KUDBEX01.kuds.kingston.ac.uk>
X-MS-Has-Attach:
X-MS-TNEF-Correlator:
Thread-Topic: [b-hebrew] Raamses
Thread-Index: AcW8ys6SJtpOLoZSSHiFUTeiE8Cj5gAJCx5L
From: "Read, James C" <K0434995 AT kingston.ac.uk>
To: <yitzhaksapir AT gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
        charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.6
Cc: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Raamses
X-BeenThere: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6
Precedence: list
List-Id: Hebrew Bible List <b-hebrew.lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew>,
        <mailto:b-hebrew-request AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/b-hebrew>
List-Post: <mailto:b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Help: <mailto:sympa AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=HELP>
List-Subscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew>,
        <mailto:b-hebrew-request AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 07:57:53 -0000

Okay! Let me see if I understand your system. First you accuse people of not 
being familiar with the arguments. Then when you see that they are and they 
have a strong position against your opinion which has a bearing on the 
central 
linguistic point you resort to accusing posters of discussing material unfit 
for the list.
So basically,in order to have a discussion with you about anything linguistic 
we have to accept your priori non-linguistic assumptions (which are usually 
baseless) 
and desist from proving them incorrect lest we discuss something 
non-linguistic 
even though it has a direct bearing on the original discussion. Yet by the 
same 
token you case most of your cases on non-linguistic 'evidence' and insist 
that 
it should be of higher value because it is extra-biblical on the premise that 
extra-biblical sources are more honest and reliable (a dubious assumption at 
best).


-----Original Message-----
From: b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org on behalf of Yitzhak Sapir
Sent: Mon 9/19/2005 4:32 AM
To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Raamses
 
On 9/18/05, Peter Kirk wrote:
> 
> Indeed to the last point. But in fact your argument is back to front. It
> was the dating of Solomon which came first, e.g. from Ussher and as more
> recently refined e.g. by Thiele. And then Shoshenk I of Egypt was dated
> from the synchronism with Solomon, on the dubious assumption that he is
> the "Shishak" of 1 Kings 14:25. There is little good evidence from Egypt
> for the date of Shoshenk I, and what there is is hard to reconcile with
> the mid 10th century.
> 

I was afraid of this...   I cannot but point you to Kitchen's article at - 
http://www.rhodes.aegean.gr/maa_journal/docs/volume2%20No2%20Dec2002/Kitchen%20paper.pdf
[Kitchen, Kenneth A., "Ancient Egyptian Chronology for Aegeanists", 
Mediterranean Archaeology and Archaeometry 2.2 (2002)]

In this article, he:
1) mentions Galil's work as an independent and different system than Thiele.  
Thiele's analysis was important, but it's not the only way to analyze the
data, and not the only "solution."
2) independently works out in p. 8 that Shoshenq I lived between 945-939 BCE 
through 924-918 BCE, in order to prove, independent of the Bible, that 
Shoshenq 
I and Shishak of the Bible were contemporaries, as far as the Bible is
concerned.
That it works out with the Bible is nice, but it's not necessary for
any Egyptologist.
3) "Shishak" of 1 Kings is actually "$w$q" in the Ktiv and if one considers 
that
his successor several generations later is spelled out in Akkadian as
"shushinqu"
one gets that "$$nq" of Egypt, "$u$inqu" of Akkadian, and "$w$q" of Hebrew 
make
a best fit at $o$enqu or $o$inqu, where the n drops in Hebrew as it
does in other
examples.  See Kitchen's comments in the above, p. 7.

Generally, if you wish to continue arguing this I would suggest taking it up 
on
the ANE list or the Egyptology list.  There is simply no sufficiently 
qualified
experts on this list to answer questions of this sort.  There is much
misinformation on these issues and these discussions seem to wind on with
no end unfortunately, but at least, it doesn't have to wind on with no
end on this
list.

Yitzhak Sapir
_______________________________________________
b-hebrew mailing list
b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew

This email has been scanned for all viruses by the MessageLabs Email
Security System.


This email has been scanned for all viruses by the MessageLabs Email
Security System.
>From VadimCherny AT mail.ru  Mon Sep 19 04:02:28 2005
Return-Path: <VadimCherny AT mail.ru>
X-Original-To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Delivered-To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Received: from mx2.mail.ru (mx2.mail.ru [194.67.23.122])
        by lists.ibiblio.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BACCF4C005
        for <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>; Mon, 19 Sep 2005 04:02:27 -0400 
(EDT)
Received: from [80.90.225.150] (port817 helo=vadim)
        by mx2.mail.ru with asmtp
        id 1EHGbZ-000G8y-00; Mon, 19 Sep 2005 12:02:25 +0400
Message-ID: <006001c5bcf0$b71f9380$261d000a@vadim>
From: "Vadim Cherny" <VadimCherny AT mail.ru>
To: "Peter Kirk" <peterkirk AT qaya.org>,
        "Michael Abernathy" <mabernathy AT isot.com>
References: <001c01c5ba26$66aec320$b500a8c0@stoneyb> <4329C78A.90802 AT qaya.org>
        <004701c5bade$74e3a830$0b64a8c0@vadim> <432B50B0.8000209 AT qaya.org>
        <006d01c5bb54$be84ac20$261d000a@vadim> <432DF212.2020204 AT qaya.org>
Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 11:04:07 +0300
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
        charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1506
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1506
Cc: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] tenses - Deut1:44
X-BeenThere: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6
Precedence: list
List-Id: Hebrew Bible List <b-hebrew.lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew>,
        <mailto:b-hebrew-request AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/b-hebrew>
List-Post: <mailto:b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Help: <mailto:sympa AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=HELP>
List-Subscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew>,
        <mailto:b-hebrew-request AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 08:02:28 -0000

> >Present tense
> >Deuteronomy 1:44 "they pursued you, as the bees do"

My reading was "as the bees would do".

Recall Rolf's example of 1Kings21:6: `Because I spoke (YIQTOL) to Nabot the
Jezreelite and said (WAYYIQTOL) to him...' Literally, “As I would speak to
Nabot.”
In both cases, we have seemingly idiomatic form ci-yiqtol. Reading "as smbd
would do" suits both cases.
You argued that "as smbd would do" is not future tense in English, though I
am not sure what else is it. What is important for the tense hypothesis,
however, is that stand-alone "would do" is English future tense.
Similarly, yiqtol may be Hebrew future tense, but ci-yiqtol has idiomatic
usage.
Now, the question remains whether that idiomatic usage relates to deictic
center shift. First of all, the question is inessential. Idiomatic usage of
"as smbd would do" does not lead scholars to reject tenses in English, and
similar idiomatic usage of ci-yiqtol is no argument against tenses in
Hebrew. But, in my opinion, the deictic center shift is there.
The full form of the equivalent Russian idiom is, "as smbd might have done
in his place." This sense is implicit in English. That is, if bees would
take the place of the pursuers, the bees would behave so-and-so. Narrator
mentally clears the pursuers off the table, puts bees in their place, and
expects the bees to operate similarly. New deictic center is the moment of
putting bees on the table, and their actions are in the future.
The mode of thinking, of the deictic center shift, is purely conventional.
Russian allows both future (как будут преследовать 
пчелы, as the bees would
pursue) and, more conventionally, grammatical past (как пчелы 
преследовали
бы, as the bees might have pursued). In the last case, the narrator is
detached, his deictic center is in the present, and he relays of the past
events.

Would you agree that Deut1:44 and 1Kings21:6 do not contradict the
hypothesis of Hebrew using tenses?

Vadim Cherny