Biblical Hebrew Forum

["Read, James C" <K0434995 AT kingston.ac.uk>]

In Genesis we are told that Lots' daughters got their father drunk and bonked 
him 
in order to start off two new nations which would be products of 
Father/daughter 
incest. There is no mention to this being bad either but each to his own 
interpretation. 

-----Original Message-----
From: b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org on behalf of Harold R. Holmyard III
Sent: Sat 8/27/2005 1:09 AM
To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] 1 Chronicles 21 - &+N revisited
 
Dear James and Karl,

>Counting the number would have been a mistake 
>because it would have shown a lack
>of faith in Yah's ability to save. This would have marked a drastic change in
>attitude on David's part as he never stopped to 
>count how many people would help
>him kill the philistine giant when he was a mere 
>shepherd boy. For this reason the
>suggestion is one worthy of consideration.
>
>However, another possible reason why counting 
>the people was a mistake was because
>that Yah had told Abraham that his seed would 
>become so many that no man would be
>able to count them just as no man could count 
>all of the stars. David's action could
>well have been an offensice affront to Yah as 
>his counting isreal was an attempt to
>so what Yah had said no man would be able to accomplish.

HH: The Israelite kings sometimes took censuses, 
including even David, it seems, on another 
occasion:

1Chr. 12:23 ¶ These are the numbers of the men 
armed for battle who came to David at Hebron to 
turn Saul's kingdom over to him, as the LORD had 
said:
1Chr. 12:24 men of Judah, carrying shield and spear - 6,800 armed for battle;
1Chr. 12:25 men of Simeon, warriors ready for battle - 7,100;
1Chr. 12:26 men of Levi - 4,600,
1Chr. 12:27 including Jehoiada, leader of the family of Aaron, with 3,700 men,
1Chr. 12:28 and Zadok, a brave young warrior, with 22 officers from his 
family;
1Chr. 12:29 men of Benjamin, Saul's kinsmen - 
3,000, most of whom had remained loyal to Saul's 
house until then;
1Chr. 12:30 men of Ephraim, brave warriors, famous in their own clans - 
20,800;
1Chr. 12:31 men of half the tribe of Manasseh, 
designated by name to come and make David king - 
18,000;
1Chr. 12:32 men of Issachar, who understood the 
times and knew what Israel should do - 200 
chiefs, with all their relatives under their 
command;
1Chr. 12:33 men of Zebulun, experienced soldiers 
prepared for battle with every type of weapon, to 
help David with undivided loyalty - 50,000;
1Chr. 12:34 men of Naphtali - 1,000 officers, 
together with 37,000 men carrying shields and 
spears;
1Chr. 12:35 men of Dan, ready for battle - 28,600;
1Chr. 12:36 men of Asher, experienced soldiers prepared for battle - 40,000;
1Chr. 12:37 and from east of the Jordan, men of 
Reuben, Gad and the half-tribe of Manasseh, armed 
with every type of weapon - 120,000.
1Chr. 12:38 ¶ All these were fighting men who 
volunteered to serve in the ranks. They came to 
Hebron fully determined to make David king over 
all Israel. All the rest of the Israelites were 
also of one mind to make David king.  so it is 
possible for David to do this without sin, and a 
military conflict would have been the most 
appropriate time. It is one thing to fight a 
single giant by yourself and another to fight a 
whole nation's army.

2Chr. 2:17 ¶ Solomon took a census of all the 
aliens who were in Israel, after the census his 
father David had taken; and they were found to be 
153,600.

2Chr. 17:12 ¶ Jehoshaphat became more and more 
powerful; he built forts and store cities in Judah
2Chr. 17:13 and had large supplies in the towns 
of Judah. He also kept experienced fighting men 
in Jerusalem.
2Chr. 17:14 Their enrollment by families was as 
follows: From Judah, commanders of units of 
1,000: Adnah the commander, with 300,000 fighting 
men;
2Chr. 17:15 next, Jehohanan the commander, with 280,000;
2Chr. 17:16 next, Amasiah son of Zicri, who 
volunteered himself for the service of the LORD, 
with 200,000.
2Chr. 17:17 From Benjamin: Eliada, a valiant 
soldier, with 200,000 men armed with bows and 
shields;
2Chr. 17:18 next, Jehozabad, with 180,000 men armed for battle.


Chr. 26:11 ¶ Uzziah had a well-trained army, 
ready to go out by divisions according to their 
numbers as mustered by Jeiel the secretary and 
Maaseiah the officer under the direction of 
Hananiah, one of the royal officials.
2Chr. 26:12 The total number of family leaders over the fighting men was 
2,600.
2Chr. 26:13 Under their command was an army of 
307,500 men trained for war, a powerful force to 
support the king against his enemies.

HH: There is no indication that there other 
occasions involved sin or received a divine 
judgment. I believe the normal interpretation is 
that David took the census out of pride, for his 
own glory. Joab thought there was no need and 
that it was wrong.

                                Yours,
                                Harold Holmyard
_______________________________________________
b-hebrew mailing list
b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew

This email has been scanned for all viruses by the MessageLabs Email
Security System.


This email has been scanned for all viruses by the MessageLabs Email
Security System.
>From hholmyard AT ont.com  Fri Aug 26 21:11:35 2005
Return-Path: <hholmyard AT ont.com>
X-Original-To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Delivered-To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Received: from online.OnlineToday.Com (online.OnlineToday.Com [204.181.200.2])
        by lists.ibiblio.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 190924C006
        for <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>; Fri, 26 Aug 2005 21:11:35 -0400 
(EDT)
Received: from [205.242.61.189] (n175.OnlineToday.Com [204.181.201.175])
        by online.OnlineToday.Com (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id 
j7R1BXT8024165
        for <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>; Fri, 26 Aug 2005 20:11:33 -0500 
(CDT)
Mime-Version: 1.0
X-Sender: hholmyard AT mail.ont.com
Message-Id: <a06020402bf356d762a0a@[205.242.61.189]>
In-Reply-To: 
<6B84A53BD25BCA46B070A05DD8C8C9F874EE82 AT KUDBEX01.kuds.kingston.ac.uk>
References: 
<6B84A53BD25BCA46B070A05DD8C8C9F874EE82 AT KUDBEX01.kuds.kingston.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 20:09:19 -0500
To: <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
From: "Harold R. Holmyard III" <hholmyard AT ont.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.6
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] 1 Chronicles 21 - &+N revisited
X-BeenThere: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6
Precedence: list
List-Id: Hebrew Bible List <b-hebrew.lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew>,
        <mailto:b-hebrew-request AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/b-hebrew>
List-Post: <mailto:b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Help: <mailto:sympa AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=HELP>
List-Subscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew>,
        <mailto:b-hebrew-request AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 01:11:35 -0000

Dear James,

>In Genesis we are told that Lots' daughters got their father drunk
>and bonked him
>in order to start off two new nations which would be products of
>Father/daughter
>incest. There is no mention to this being bad either but each to his
>own interpretation.


HH: But the Law clarified that such behavior was wrong.

                                Yours,
                                Harold Holmyard
>
>HH: The Israelite kings sometimes took censuses,
>including even David, it seems, on another
>occasion:
>From kwrandolph AT email.com  Fri Aug 26 21:49:42 2005
Return-Path: <kwrandolph AT email.com>
X-Original-To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Delivered-To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Received: from webmail-outgoing.us4.outblaze.com
        (webmail-outgoing.us4.outblaze.com [205.158.62.67])
        by lists.ibiblio.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07DAE4C006
        for <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>; Fri, 26 Aug 2005 21:49:42 -0400 
(EDT)
Received: from unknown (unknown [192.168.9.180])
        by webmail-outgoing.us4.outblaze.com (Postfix) with QMQP id
        713981800126
        for <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>; Sat, 27 Aug 2005 01:49:41 +0000 
(GMT)
X-OB-Received: from unknown (205.158.62.182)
        by wfilter.us4.outblaze.com; 27 Aug 2005 01:49:41 -0000
Received: by ws1-6.us4.outblaze.com (Postfix, from userid 1001)
        id 67A811CE303; Sat, 27 Aug 2005 01:49:41 +0000 (GMT)
Content-Disposition: inline
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
MIME-Version: 1.0
From: "Karl Randolph" <kwrandolph AT email.com>
To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 20:49:41 -0500
Received: from [69.227.52.23] by ws1-6.us4.outblaze.com with http for
        kwrandolph AT email.com; Fri, 26 Aug 2005 20:49:41 -0500
X-Originating-Ip: 69.227.52.23
X-Originating-Server: ws1-6.us4.outblaze.com
Message-Id: <20050827014941.67A811CE303 AT ws1-6.us4.outblaze.com>
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] 1 Chronicles 21 - &+N revisited
X-BeenThere: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6
Precedence: list
List-Id: Hebrew Bible List <b-hebrew.lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew>,
        <mailto:b-hebrew-request AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/b-hebrew>
List-Post: <mailto:b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Help: <mailto:sympa AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=HELP>
List-Subscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew>,
        <mailto:b-hebrew-request AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 01:49:42 -0000

Harold:

There's a difference between counting all the people who 
take part in a special event, such a making David king, and 
making a census of all the people. Further, there was no 
prohibition on numbering all the aliens (foreigners) living 
among Israel. What David did wrong was number all the people, 
rather he ordered Joab to do so.

Did any other king make a census of Israel? All I remember 
is that they numbered only those who turned out for battle, 
not the whole people.

Karl W. Randolph.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Harold R. Holmyard III" <hholmyard AT ont.com>
> 
> Dear James and Karl,
> 
> 
> HH: The Israelite kings sometimes took censuses,
> including even David, it seems, on another
> occasion:
> 
> 1Chr. 12:23 ¶ These are the numbers of the men
> armed for battle who came to David at Hebron to
> turn Saul's kingdom over to him, as the LORD had
> said:
...
> 1Chr. 12:38 ¶ All these were fighting men who
> volunteered to serve in the ranks. They came to
> Hebron fully determined to make David king over
> all Israel. All the rest of the Israelites were
> also of one mind to make David king.  so it is
> possible for David to do this without sin, and a
> military conflict would have been the most
> appropriate time. It is one thing to fight a
> single giant by yourself and another to fight a
> whole nation's army.
> 
> 2Chr. 2:17 ¶ Solomon took a census of all the
> aliens who were in Israel, after the census his
> father David had taken; and they were found to be
> 153,600.
> 
> 2Chr. 17:12 ¶ Jehoshaphat became more and more
> powerful; he built forts and store cities in Judah
> 2Chr. 17:13 and had large supplies in the towns
> of Judah. He also kept experienced fighting men
> in Jerusalem.
> 2Chr. 17:14 Their enrollment by families was as
> follows: From Judah, commanders of units of
> 1,000: Adnah the commander, with 300,000 fighting
> men;
> 2Chr. 17:15 next, Jehohanan the commander, with 280,000;
> 2Chr. 17:16 next, Amasiah son of Zicri, who
> volunteered himself for the service of the LORD,
> with 200,000.
> 2Chr. 17:17 From Benjamin: Eliada, a valiant
> soldier, with 200,000 men armed with bows and
> shields;
> 2Chr. 17:18 next, Jehozabad, with 180,000 men armed for battle.
> 
> 
> Chr. 26:11 ¶ Uzziah had a well-trained army,
> ready to go out by divisions according to their
> numbers as mustered by Jeiel the secretary and
> Maaseiah the officer under the direction of
> Hananiah, one of the royal officials.
> 2Chr. 26:12 The total number of family leaders over the fighting 
> men was 2,600.
> 2Chr. 26:13 Under their command was an army of
> 307,500 men trained for war, a powerful force to
> support the king against his enemies.
> 
> HH: There is no indication that there other
> occasions involved sin or received a divine
> judgment. I believe the normal interpretation is
> that David took the census out of pride, for his
> own glory. Joab thought there was no need and
> that it was wrong.
> 
>                               Yours,
>                               Harold Holmyard

-- 
___________________________________________________________
Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com
http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm