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  • From: "Read, James C" <K0434995 AT kingston.ac.uk>
  • To: "Harold R. Holmyard III" <hholmyard AT ont.com>
  • Cc: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
  • Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] 1 Chronicles 21 - &+N revisited
  • Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 01:34:48 +0100


In Genesis we are told that Lots' daughters got their father drunk and bonked
him
in order to start off two new nations which would be products of
Father/daughter
incest. There is no mention to this being bad either but each to his own
interpretation.

-----Original Message-----
From: b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org on behalf of Harold R. Holmyard III
Sent: Sat 8/27/2005 1:09 AM
To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] 1 Chronicles 21 - &+N revisited

Dear James and Karl,

>Counting the number would have been a mistake
>because it would have shown a lack
>of faith in Yah's ability to save. This would have marked a drastic change in
>attitude on David's part as he never stopped to
>count how many people would help
>him kill the philistine giant when he was a mere
>shepherd boy. For this reason the
>suggestion is one worthy of consideration.
>
>However, another possible reason why counting
>the people was a mistake was because
>that Yah had told Abraham that his seed would
>become so many that no man would be
>able to count them just as no man could count
>all of the stars. David's action could
>well have been an offensice affront to Yah as
>his counting isreal was an attempt to
>so what Yah had said no man would be able to accomplish.

HH: The Israelite kings sometimes took censuses,
including even David, it seems, on another
occasion:

1Chr. 12:23 ¶ These are the numbers of the men
armed for battle who came to David at Hebron to
turn Saul's kingdom over to him, as the LORD had
said:
1Chr. 12:24 men of Judah, carrying shield and spear - 6,800 armed for battle;
1Chr. 12:25 men of Simeon, warriors ready for battle - 7,100;
1Chr. 12:26 men of Levi - 4,600,
1Chr. 12:27 including Jehoiada, leader of the family of Aaron, with 3,700 men,
1Chr. 12:28 and Zadok, a brave young warrior, with 22 officers from his
family;
1Chr. 12:29 men of Benjamin, Saul's kinsmen -
3,000, most of whom had remained loyal to Saul's
house until then;
1Chr. 12:30 men of Ephraim, brave warriors, famous in their own clans -
20,800;
1Chr. 12:31 men of half the tribe of Manasseh,
designated by name to come and make David king -
18,000;
1Chr. 12:32 men of Issachar, who understood the
times and knew what Israel should do - 200
chiefs, with all their relatives under their
command;
1Chr. 12:33 men of Zebulun, experienced soldiers
prepared for battle with every type of weapon, to
help David with undivided loyalty - 50,000;
1Chr. 12:34 men of Naphtali - 1,000 officers,
together with 37,000 men carrying shields and
spears;
1Chr. 12:35 men of Dan, ready for battle - 28,600;
1Chr. 12:36 men of Asher, experienced soldiers prepared for battle - 40,000;
1Chr. 12:37 and from east of the Jordan, men of
Reuben, Gad and the half-tribe of Manasseh, armed
with every type of weapon - 120,000.
1Chr. 12:38 ¶ All these were fighting men who
volunteered to serve in the ranks. They came to
Hebron fully determined to make David king over
all Israel. All the rest of the Israelites were
also of one mind to make David king. so it is
possible for David to do this without sin, and a
military conflict would have been the most
appropriate time. It is one thing to fight a
single giant by yourself and another to fight a
whole nation's army.

2Chr. 2:17 ¶ Solomon took a census of all the
aliens who were in Israel, after the census his
father David had taken; and they were found to be
153,600.

2Chr. 17:12 ¶ Jehoshaphat became more and more
powerful; he built forts and store cities in Judah
2Chr. 17:13 and had large supplies in the towns
of Judah. He also kept experienced fighting men
in Jerusalem.
2Chr. 17:14 Their enrollment by families was as
follows: From Judah, commanders of units of
1,000: Adnah the commander, with 300,000 fighting
men;
2Chr. 17:15 next, Jehohanan the commander, with 280,000;
2Chr. 17:16 next, Amasiah son of Zicri, who
volunteered himself for the service of the LORD,
with 200,000.
2Chr. 17:17 From Benjamin: Eliada, a valiant
soldier, with 200,000 men armed with bows and
shields;
2Chr. 17:18 next, Jehozabad, with 180,000 men armed for battle.


Chr. 26:11 ¶ Uzziah had a well-trained army,
ready to go out by divisions according to their
numbers as mustered by Jeiel the secretary and
Maaseiah the officer under the direction of
Hananiah, one of the royal officials.
2Chr. 26:12 The total number of family leaders over the fighting men was
2,600.
2Chr. 26:13 Under their command was an army of
307,500 men trained for war, a powerful force to
support the king against his enemies.

HH: There is no indication that there other
occasions involved sin or received a divine
judgment. I believe the normal interpretation is
that David took the census out of pride, for his
own glory. Joab thought there was no need and
that it was wrong.

Yours,
Harold Holmyard
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>From hholmyard AT ont.com Fri Aug 26 21:11:35 2005
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Dear James,

>In Genesis we are told that Lots' daughters got their father drunk
>and bonked him
>in order to start off two new nations which would be products of
>Father/daughter
>incest. There is no mention to this being bad either but each to his
>own interpretation.


HH: But the Law clarified that such behavior was wrong.

Yours,
Harold Holmyard
>
>HH: The Israelite kings sometimes took censuses,
>including even David, it seems, on another
>occasion:
>From kwrandolph AT email.com Fri Aug 26 21:49:42 2005
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Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] 1 Chronicles 21 - &+N revisited
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Harold:

There's a difference between counting all the people who
take part in a special event, such a making David king, and
making a census of all the people. Further, there was no
prohibition on numbering all the aliens (foreigners) living
among Israel. What David did wrong was number all the people,
rather he ordered Joab to do so.

Did any other king make a census of Israel? All I remember
is that they numbered only those who turned out for battle,
not the whole people.

Karl W. Randolph.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Harold R. Holmyard III" <hholmyard AT ont.com>
>
> Dear James and Karl,
>
>
> HH: The Israelite kings sometimes took censuses,
> including even David, it seems, on another
> occasion:
>
> 1Chr. 12:23 ¶ These are the numbers of the men
> armed for battle who came to David at Hebron to
> turn Saul's kingdom over to him, as the LORD had
> said:
...
> 1Chr. 12:38 ¶ All these were fighting men who
> volunteered to serve in the ranks. They came to
> Hebron fully determined to make David king over
> all Israel. All the rest of the Israelites were
> also of one mind to make David king. so it is
> possible for David to do this without sin, and a
> military conflict would have been the most
> appropriate time. It is one thing to fight a
> single giant by yourself and another to fight a
> whole nation's army.
>
> 2Chr. 2:17 ¶ Solomon took a census of all the
> aliens who were in Israel, after the census his
> father David had taken; and they were found to be
> 153,600.
>
> 2Chr. 17:12 ¶ Jehoshaphat became more and more
> powerful; he built forts and store cities in Judah
> 2Chr. 17:13 and had large supplies in the towns
> of Judah. He also kept experienced fighting men
> in Jerusalem.
> 2Chr. 17:14 Their enrollment by families was as
> follows: From Judah, commanders of units of
> 1,000: Adnah the commander, with 300,000 fighting
> men;
> 2Chr. 17:15 next, Jehohanan the commander, with 280,000;
> 2Chr. 17:16 next, Amasiah son of Zicri, who
> volunteered himself for the service of the LORD,
> with 200,000.
> 2Chr. 17:17 From Benjamin: Eliada, a valiant
> soldier, with 200,000 men armed with bows and
> shields;
> 2Chr. 17:18 next, Jehozabad, with 180,000 men armed for battle.
>
>
> Chr. 26:11 ¶ Uzziah had a well-trained army,
> ready to go out by divisions according to their
> numbers as mustered by Jeiel the secretary and
> Maaseiah the officer under the direction of
> Hananiah, one of the royal officials.
> 2Chr. 26:12 The total number of family leaders over the fighting
> men was 2,600.
> 2Chr. 26:13 Under their command was an army of
> 307,500 men trained for war, a powerful force to
> support the king against his enemies.
>
> HH: There is no indication that there other
> occasions involved sin or received a divine
> judgment. I believe the normal interpretation is
> that David took the census out of pride, for his
> own glory. Joab thought there was no need and
> that it was wrong.
>
> Yours,
> Harold Holmyard

--
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