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Re: [b-hebrew] Job 1:8; 2:3

From: "Harold R. Holmyard III" <hholmyard AT ont.com>
To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Job 1:8; 2:3
Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 22:08:48 -0500

Dear Charles,

> >>Dave Washburn

>>Actually, when God asks Satan "have you considered my servant
>>Job? Look how
>>great he is. Makes your blood boil, doesn't it?????" (my paraphrase,
>>obviously) it almost appears that God is taunting Satan, daring
>>him to make
>>an accusation. In both chapters, it is God, not Satan, who
brings up the
>>subject of Job. What do you do with that?
>>
>Charles D. Rempel
>Actually the Hebrew says, "Have you set your heart on my servant Job?" A
>little different perspective then is implied by the English translation.

> D. Jim West
True- but in a woodenly literalistic way. Or are you suggesting that
satan pulled out his heart and placed it on job or that that was what
god was asking? of course not- its an idiomatic phrase- quite correctly
rendered in english by "considered" in this context. further- you say
"the Hebrew says... " and then you give an english translation. In
point of fact the Hebrew doesn't say anything in English, it says it in
Hebrew. More correctly you should have said, "the hebrew suggests an
english translation which would go something like this....." I realize
that sound pedantic- and in a way it is- but its precision we should
strive for- and since that is what youve asked of Dave, that's what
should be required of you.

Actually, I had never considered the totally literal thought of taking ones heart out and "setting" it anywhere. While idiomatically it may well be that "considered" is a good translation, there is a possible inference that God is approaching Satan and bringing up the topic. I think that "what the Hebrew suggests" is that Satan had already carefully "considered" Job and therefore, in good English idiom, "set his heart" on testing Job.

HH: Dave seems right that the phrase &M LB means to "consider," not "have a desire for" or something like that. That is what my own experience has taught, and a quick check of places where the verb and noun stand together support that subjective sense. In the following verses, all that I found in the search, the phrase always (7x) signifies something like "consider":

Ex. 9:21 And the one who did not pay attention to the word of the LORD left his servants and his cattle in the field.
Is. 41:22 "Bring in [your idols] to tell us what is going to happen. Tell us what the former things were, so that we may consider them and know their final outcome. Or declare to us the things to come,
Ezek. 40:4 The man said to me, "Son of man, look with your eyes and hear with your ears and pay attention to everything I am going to show you, for that is why you have been brought here. Tell the house of Israel everything you see."
Ezek. 44:5 ¶ The LORD said to me, "Son of man, look carefully, listen closely and give attention to everything I tell you concerning all the regulations regarding the temple of the LORD. Give attention to the entrance of the temple and all the exits of the sanctuary.
Job 1:8 ¶ Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil."
Job 2:3 ¶ Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil. And he still maintains his integrity, though you incited me against him to ruin him without any reason."

Yours,
Harold Holmyard

From hholmyard AT ont.com Fri Aug 5 23:23:32 2005

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Dear Charles,

While idiomatically it may well be that "considered" is a good translation, there is a possible inference that God is approaching Satan and bringing up the topic. I think that "what the Hebrew suggests" is that Satan had already carefully "considered" Job and therefore, in good English idiom, "set his heart" on testing Job.

HH: The standard interpretation I've heard is that the devil as the accuser speaks ill of human beings and finds things to criticize. Particularly he attacks their loyalty to God. So as Dave tried to point out, God would be drawing attention to Job as someone who lived uprightly before God. God points him out to Satan as a good testimony, so Satan tries to show that Job serves God only because of the blessings he receives or the good times he enjoys.

Job fails to crumble under the pressure so God addresses Satan again:

Job 2:3 ¶ Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil. And he still maintains his integrity, though you incited me against him to ruin him without any reason."

Then Satan claimed that that under the provocation of physical suffering Job would curse God to His face. Throughout Satan is trying to disprove Job as an example of a person loyal to God who did what was right. It is in response to God's initiative that he takes this tack. But God evidently acts because Satan is always denying that people serve God for godly reasons.

Yours,
Harold Holmyard

From charlesr AT mygalaxyexpress.com Fri Aug 5 23:59:38 2005

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From: "Charles Rempel" <CharlesR AT mygalaxyexpress.com>
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Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Job 1:8; 2:3
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>Charles: While idiomatically it may well be that
>"considered" is a good translation, there is a
>possible inference that God is approaching Satan
>and bringing up the topic. I think that "what
>the Hebrew suggests" is that Satan had already
>carefully "considered" Job and therefore, in
>good English idiom, "set his heart" on testing
>Job.

HH: The standard interpretation I've heard is
that the devil as the accuser speaks ill of human
beings and finds things to criticize.
Particularly he attacks their loyalty to God. So
as Dave tried to point out, God would be drawing
attention to Job as someone who lived uprightly
before God. God points him out to Satan as a good
testimony, so Satan tries to show that Job serves
God only because of the blessings he receives or
the good times he enjoys.

Job fails to crumble under the pressure so God addresses Satan again:

Job 2:3 ¶ Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you
considered my servant Job? There is no one on
earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a
man who fears God and shuns evil. And he still
maintains his integrity, though you incited me
against him to ruin him without any reason."

Then Satan claimed that that under the
provocation of physical suffering Job would curse
God to His face. Throughout Satan is trying to
disprove Job as an example of a person loyal to
God who did what was right. It is in response to
God's initiative that he takes this tack. But God
evidently acts because Satan is always denying
that people serve God for godly reasons.

Howard,
I appreciate the standard interpretation, but is that actually what the
Hebrew says? Please note the emphasis I gave of "setting the heart" as
"having already considered." I do not deny that meaning of the idiom. What I
am questioning is the apparent English emphasis which might indicate that
God necessarily brings the topic up and presents Job as a new idea to Satan.
I read the text as indicating that Satan has been going about and walking on
the earth (v.7) and in his roamings having encountered Job, he has already
carefully considered Job, and must obtain permission before he can actually
put Job to the test. When combined with v.7 it seems to me to indicate
previous consideration by Satan, not God introducing a new idea to Satan.

Charles

Re: [b-hebrew] Job 1:8; 2:3, Charles Rempel, 08/05/2005
- Re: [b-hebrew] Job 1:8; 2:3, Jim West, 08/05/2005
  - Re: [b-hebrew] Job 1:8; 2:3, Charles Rempel, 08/05/2005
    - Re: [b-hebrew] Job 1:8; 2:3, Harold R. Holmyard III, 08/05/2005
- Re: [b-hebrew] Job 1:8; 2:3, Dave Washburn, 08/05/2005
- <Possible follow-up(s)>
- Re: [b-hebrew] Job 1:8; 2:3, George F Somsel, 08/06/2005