Biblical Hebrew Forum

[Shoshanna Walker <rosewalk AT concentric.net>]

So you have missed the entire point of the Torah and YOU are the one 
who has not studied it, because it cannot be understood properly 
without the Oral Torah - which you admit you don't care about.

And as for your last comment, YOU changed the subject.  First you 
said that G-d recognizes throughout the Torah that a plurality of 
"gods" existed, and you cited some verses and I proved that it was 
not G-d RECOGNIZING them, but that they were IDOLS,

I didn't address whether or not there were SOME PEOPLE who believed 
that other gods existed, because that is not what you said - you said 
that G-D recognized them.

THAT is false.

The fact that human beings are deluded into believing in something 
does not prove that it exists.  Their existence was NOT LATER called 
into question, it was demanded of humanity by G-d THROUGHOUT THE 
ENTIRE TORAH that we do NOT WORSHIP any made-up, non-existent gods or 
idols.

That thread runs THROUGHOUT THE ENTIRE TORAH

YOU are the one who doesn't understand it

Simply because it cannot be understood on one superficial ie; linguistic level

You can play with Hebrew all you want but it is not a tool to 
understand the Torah from a theological point of view, WHICH IS ITS 
PURPOSE IN THE FIRST PLACE

Don't DARE tell me whether or not I have been a good student of the 
Torah, when you haven't even learned it in the first place!

Shoshanna








Shoshanna Walker wrote:

> Not argumentative or unpleasant but arrogant!


Not at all.

> And completely ignorant of Judaism, and the Oral Torah, without 
> which YOU are the one who can not understand the Torah


Actually if you are interpreting texts through the lens of tradition 
you are practicing eisegesis- reading INTO texts.  That is quite a 
different thing than exegesis. Which is, I might remind you, the 
purpose of this list.

> I have been reading the Torah - what you call the "Hebrew Bible" - 
> and learning spoken Hebrew as a language - since first grade!


Okie dokie.  But clearly you have not done a very good job of it. 
Doing something wrong a long time is of no advantage.

> YOU are the one who is completely unfamiliar with MY history!


Well that's certainly true.  I don't know a single thing about you. 
But I have not addressed YOUR history- I have addressed your 
misinterpretation of texts.

> How DARE you tell that my JEWISH religious education has been 
> FLAWED, and that we Jews do not understand our history and our 
> heritage and OUR Torah, it would be like me "correcting" the 
> knowledge that a Hindu has of his religion or scripture


I didn't say anything of the sort.  I said your reading of the texts 
was sub standard.

> Genesis 31:30  This is not G-d recognizing other gods, this  is 
> LAVAN speaking about HIS "gods", did  you not  notice that when 
> Lavan referred to Jacob's G-d (verse 29) it was SINGULAR - ONE 
> G-d????
>
> Genesis 35:2  There is a word in this verse which describes "gods" 
> - the word is "Neichor"   Elohei Neichor = ALIEN GODS!  Again it is 
> not G-d talking, it is Jacob telling his household to REMOVE the 
> alien gods in their midst.  In your mind, that means that G-d 
> recognizes other "gods"??
>
> Exodus 12:12  G-d is going to punish the gods of Egypt - they are 
> NOT G-d - they are gods in the imagination of those who worship 
> them, they are idols, G-d does NOT recognize them. G-d HIMSELF will 
> destroy them, ie; their idols.  Rashi says of this verse - the 
> wooden idols rotted and the metal ones melted.  Then the commentary 
> goes on: "Angels, too, are referred to as Elohim; hence this term 
> can be taken as a reference to them.  Ramban explains: The heavenly 
> forces that guide and protect the destiny of Egypt were struck in 
> this plague, so that Egypt would be completely defenseless


I dont care what Rashi says.  Interesting thought it might be it has 
no bearing whatsoever on interpreting the text itself.  What you 
clearly are not comprehending, and indeed appear unable to 
comprehend, is the fact that these verse, and many many many others 
support the fact that in ancient Israel a plethora of gods were 
recognized as existing.  That their existence was later called into 
question is patently clear.  But that the mere mention of "foreign" 
or "strange" or "alien" gods in hebrew texts shows that in some 
circles there were other gods perceived as existing.  This is, I 
think, the very central point that you have missed altogether.

Jim

--
D. Jim West

Biblical Studies Resources -  http://web.infoave.net/~jwest
Biblical Theology Weblog -  http://biblical-studies.blogspot.com