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  • From: kwrandolph <kwrandolph AT email.com>
  • To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
  • Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Re: Eden's Four Rivers (article)
  • Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 16:17:44 -0700

Walter:

I appreciate it that you have moved your articles off list, and just provide URLs to those articles on list.

As for dates claimed by archeologists, I now take them with a big grain of salt. For example, the date that Nehemiah was sent to rebuild Jerusalem's walls has been listed by others from 390-440 BC, a span of 50 years. Rohl suggests that Egyptian history is off by about 2.5 centuries for 1000 BC, and he has a good argument. And these are dates for which we have written records. Where the records are far sketchier or even lacking, how can we trust the dates given by archeologists? I know I can't.

The problem with a localized flood is the wording in Genesis. From a linguistic standpoint, the Shuruppak flood and Noah's flood were two different events, which may have been combined in Sumerian memory.

Further, Abraham was not even from Sumer, but from Ur of the Chaldeans, which spoke a different language. Would Abraham have even known about the Sumerian legends? That there are similarities between the Sumerian and Biblical flood accounts could also be the result of a common source for those and all flood accounts around the world.

You recognized the linguistic problem with the four rivers of Eden.

Now this is not an argument commanding you to "believe the Bible" (unless you were predisposed to do that before) but just an acknowledgement that linguistically, the Biblical account makes certain claims which you are free to accept as truth or reject as mere legend.

Karl W. Randolph.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Walter R. Mattfeld" <mattfeld12 AT charter.net>

Dear Karl,

You are right _all_ proposals om Eden's one river becoming four are
in the end only "speculations." I recall some scholars suggesting
wadi Batin from Saudi Arabia being the Pishon connecting with the
Euphrates near the Shatt al Arab and then the Euphrates itself
along with the Tigris empty into the Shatt al Arab, then the Karkun
(Gihon according to some) from Iran's Zagros mountains also
connects with the Shat al Arab. However these "four" rivers are not
coming _out of one river_, they are flowing _into it_ just the
"opposite" of Genesis' scenario.

As regards Noah's Flood destroying the Edenic river courses- this
is a pretty common understanding since Renaissance among some
scholars.

The problem ? A Mesopotamian text of the 2d millennium BCE has the
flood at a city called Shuruppak in Sumer, its king, called
Ziusudra (also called Atrahasis and Utnapishtim) is warned by his
god Enki to build a boat and save himself, family and animals. He
does.

Shuruppak has been identified as present day Tell Fara. When
excavated a "flood layer" of two feet of clay was found and dated
to circa 2900 BCE. It was the _only_ flood deposit found at the
city. It appears at the end of Jemdat-Nasr phase and above it lies
a new era called Early Dynastic I. The residents of Shuruppak
rebuilt their city after the flood but "nearby" rather than
directly over the flooded site. Microscopic anaylsis of the aluvial
sediment overlying "Jamdet-Nasr" Shuruppak was determined to be
caused by a flooding Euphrates, not a world wide flood.

Many scholars who study the Mesopotamian account are struck by the
"parallels" between the Shuruppak flood and the Genesis' flood.
Both heroes are warned by a god to save themselves by building a
boat. The flood occurs at the "end" of a _600_ year cycle for
Ziusudra; Noah is _600_ years old (Ge 7:11) when the flood occurs.
Both heroes are given seven days notice before the flood's arrival;
After the flood both send out birds to find evidence of land
appearing above receding waters; both offer a burnt offerings
sacrifice after the flood. The god (Enlil) who sent the flood gives
the survivors of the flood (on the boat) a blessing; Yahweh gives a
blessing to Noah after the flood too. A god (Enlil) swears he will
never send another flood to destroy all of mankind; so too Yahweh.
The biblical chronology for the Flood suggests for some scholars a
date circa 2348 BCE, in the 3rd millennium BCE. Archaeologists
dated Shurupakk's flood layer to the 3rd millennium BCE, circa
2900/2800 BCE. Other flood layers have been found at other cities
in Sumer, but they are of different periods of time. Not finding
any evidence of a flood destroying _all_ the cities of 3rd
millennium BCE Sumer, some scholars, understandably, have
reservations about the biblical account of a 3rd millennium BCE
Flood.

As you are probably aware, some scholars understand the biblical
flood is recalling the Shurupakk flood event because of above noted
similiarities in the two accounts, Mesopotamian and Biblical.
Because they also understand the Shuruppak flood did not encompass
the world, they therefore seek the river of Eden and its four
"heads" (Hebrew: rasim) somewhere in the confines of a 5th through
3rd millennium BCE Mesopotamia (The world being created by Yahweh
ca. 4004 BCE according to the biblical chronology worked out by a
Christian scholar Bishop Usher). To date, archaeologists have
failed to find evidence of world wide flood in the 5th-3rd
millenniums BCE in Mesopotamia, Syria or Canaan. They date some
settlements in Sumer to the Ubaid period of circa 4900 BCE,
specifically the ancient city of Eridu (modern Abu Shahrein near Ur
of the Chaldees), which in Mesopotamian myths was the very first
city built by the god Enki. This myth has the world covered in
water, then a freshwater stream eurpts from the depths of the
ocean, land forms about it and Enki builds the first city Eridu. Of
course in the Bible the first city is built by Cain and called
Enoch after his son (Ge 4:17). So, it is clear that Genesis' author
understands at least _one city_ was engulfed by Noah's 3rd
millennium BCE flood, but the archaeological evidence does not
support this notion.

I personally favor Shurupakk as the flood being recalled in
Genesis, and thus "my interest" in finding a river in a 3rd
millennium BCE Mesopotamian context which divides into "four
heads". I noted in my article that in the 3rd millennium BCE the
Euphrates did divide into four heads or streams as it fanned out
over edin-the-plain (Sumer) between Sippar and Nippur (as shown on
the archaeological map). If someone knows of any earlier scholarly
articles proposing the Euphrates as a "possible" river of Eden that
divides into four streams I would be much obliged to receive, off
list, a bibliography for my further studies.

Regards, Walter
Walter Reinhold Warttig Mattfeld y de la Torre, M.A. Ed.
mattfeld12 AT charter.net
www.bibleorigins.net




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