Biblical Hebrew Forum

["wattswestmaas" <wattswestmaas AT eircom.net>]

JACK TIADATSI WROTE

 Ex 34:7 is of course a
conditional comand, a law.   How does that change the facts
of either 2 Sam 21 1-14 or 1 Sam 15 which are specific
cases where the law is applied.

RESPONSE FROM CHRIS:

NO! with respect, it is NOT a law,  It is GOD Himself that is declaring this
as an intregal part of His Name and Character, and in no way informs the
Israelites that this is a part of their responsibilities towards God.  Quite
the contrary, God FORBIDS any idea that the people can take this
responsibility upon themselves in Deut 24:16.
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JACK TIADATSI WROTE

In 1 Sam 15 the word used is *paqadtiy* "I will punish*

RESPONSE FROM CHRIS:

Well it is also translated as "remember" and this fits in with the idea of
"paying attention to..."  However at the risk of appearing pedantic let us
say that it does mean "punish" ...... Therefore......read the following

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JACK TIADATSI WROTE

Although Ex 34:7 is not cited, it is
a clear cut case of the principle of punishing the living
for the crimes of the dead is put into practice.

RESPONSE FROM CHRIS:

NO, it only appears that way.  You forget one huge giganagorous point
here:That the Amalekites were CONSTANTLY slaughtering men, women, and
children in Saul's day.  That this obnoxious tribe of what could be likened
to some norse expeditions between 700 and 970 AD against Ireland were
merciless in their exploits. I can furnish biblical evidence for their
character but that requires a seperate email if you don't mind.  God reminds
Saul that He must destroy ALL because

 1. That they were a constant threat to Israel's existence.  PLease remember
Deut chapter 5 where there is a QUALIFIER to the statement of the children
being punished where it adds .."OF THOSE THAT HATE ME...' That is clearly
the Amalekites.  God was not punishing the amalekites for the Fathers' sins
but because they HATED the God of Israel still and continued to do so.

2.    Rememberance is a BETTER translation of PKD by virtue of its use back
when God said Remember what the Amalekites did to you along the way how they
in a cowardly manner began picking off your rear column, that was before the
memorial battle.  And also that God said that He would have war with these
people from generation to generation, which is also symbolic as well as
practical and physical.

So I really do not think that this has anything whatsoever to do with the
statement in Exodus 34:7 because it is clear that the amalekites were also
being punished for their PRESENT and ONGOING sins.  Remember when God said
that the sins of the amorites had not yet reached their FULLNESS, thus God
does not inflict judgements simply because the Fathers had sinned.
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JACK TIADATSI WROTE`

 Similarly in 2 Sam 21 the two sons and five grandsons of
Saul are put to death for Saul's attempt to kill the
Gibeonites, well after Saul himself was dead.

RESPONSE FROM CHRIS:

Once again I refer you to the fact that God gave no command to the
Israelites to put sons and daughters to death for the actions of their
Fathers.  Quite the contrary he forbade it!

However this was the Gibeonites that requested something from David and what
we must pay special attention to is the fact that Mephibosheth was spared.
If what the Gibeonites had requested was TOTALLY UNJUST AND UNFOUNDED then I
have no doubt that David would have argued about this, he was afterall a
just and noble man.  We are not told what these descendants of Saul were
scheming. perhaps they were plotting something and David knew this.  (One
only has to study European history and the feudal ways to realise that
dispossessed sons and daughters from royal patronages would harbour
jealousies and grudges and upset equilibriums for their own proud and
selfish ambitions)  So maybe the Gibeonites were privy to inside information
that we are not told in these scriptures, and this led to their Particular
request from David.
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JACK TIADATSI WROTE`

Once more, there is more
case history where the principle expounded in Ex 34:7 is
put into detailed practice.

RESPONSE FROM CHRIS:

So far I have not seen any case history where God Punishes the descendants
for the Fathers sins.  Rather what I have seen is this:  That God TACKLES
the sinful tendencies that are PASSED down to the next generation through
'Indoctrination' and 'Propaganda', and God deals with it accordingly (the
amalekites and the Ammorites are a case history of this, where also God says
about the Ammorites that their sin has not yet reached its full) , if the
children persisit wilfully in their hatred or abominations that were handed
down to them by their parents, then God confronts them with some form of
judgement.

All the examples being expounded deal with clear historical
'cause-reason-consequence' parameters and are ISOLATED IN THEIR CONTEXT by
specific commands and circumstances.

 If the statement in Exodus 34:7 is to be taken as the way that I see some
people are taking it then 99 percent of the then known world including many
of Israel's offspring should be dead! Oppresive empires have lasted well
into their 10th generation before crumbling. Societies prevail in their
oppresive regimes, kingdoms dominate the good and the 'righteous',   Evil
acts are everywhere perpetrated and their children grow into successful
lords and dukes and kings!!!!  Please answer this in the context of Ex 34:7.

Finally it sems to me that some people are viewing ex 34:7 and equivalent
places as a law of retribution.

1.  Father Sins
2.  Father dies in his sin
3.  One of the following forthcoming generations are doomed!!??


This is not some mathematical formula applied to the character of a
righteous God that I see,  there is a principal at work here, I agree, but
no exposition is forthcoming that satisfies the idea of a "Law of divine
Conduct" against the offspring of the Unrepentant.  And this is my key
challenge.

This statement is not meant to be seen as God's vengeful law, threatening
and unmoveable, but as a solid aspect of His character that has a meaningful
purpose that is consistent with - Ezekiel 18:23 and 32.  (He has no pleasure
in the death of the wicked). And that is what I am trying to understand.

Best Regards, Chris Watts, Ireland.