Biblical Hebrew Forum

["George Athas" <gathas AT hotkey.net.au>]

Just to back up David's comments, I believe Barry Webb's idea is based on the 
thematic developments within the literary structure of Isaiah as a piece of 
literature. While there may be other historical considerations which are 
worth noting, Barry's study is literary and theological. I believe he is 
picking up the subtleties of the literary currents within Isaiah.

BTW - I can vouch that Barry Webb is certainly no wierdo. He happens to be a 
personal friend, and is a consummate gentleman with a brilliant mind for 
literary and theological analysis. I have the deepest respect and admiration 
for him.

Best Regards,

GEORGE ATHAS
(Sydney, Australia)


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: David Kummerow 
  To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org 
  Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 10:33 AM
  Subject: [b-hebrew] Re: Almah vs. Bethulah in Isaiah 7




  Karl,

  I simply provided the quotation so as to provide an indication of the 
  position that I, personally, favour. It may sound "wierd" straight out of 
  the blue. However, have a read of the article, commentary, and article.

  I find Webb's position convincing as it is an argument built on a study of 
  formal and thematic textual indicators from the book as a whole. Besides, 
  Barry Webb is no "wierdo".

  David Kummerow.

  >This explanation sounds sort of wierd. So wierd, that that's all I can say 
  >on it.
  >
  >Karl W. Randolph.
  >
  >----- Original Message -----
  >From: "David Kummerow" <farmerjoeblo AT hotmail.com>
  >
  > >
  > >
  > > For me, one of the more convincing potential positions regarding
  > > the referent of the 'almah is put forward in:
  > >
  > > Rice, Gene. "A Neglected Interpretation of the Immanuel Prophecy."
  > > ZAW 90 (1978): 220-227.
  > >
  > > This is taken up in the popular commentary of Barry Webb and also
  > > in his essay, "Zion in Transformation: A Literary Approach to
  > > Isaiah," in _The Bible in Three Dimensions: Essays in Celebration
  > > of Forty Years of Biblical Studies in the University of Sheffield_
  > > (ed. D.J.A. Clines et al; JSOTSS 87; Sheffield: JSOT Press, 1990),
  > > 82.
  > >
  > > To quote Webb (p.82): "Given the situation (Jerusalem beset by
  > > foes, 7.1) and the fact that Isaiah is pointedly told to take his
  > > son Shear-jashub ('a remnant shall return') as he goes to confront
  > > the faithless Ahaz (7.2), there can be little doubt that 7.14
  > > refers metaphorically to the emergance of a faithful remnant. The
  > > young woman who is about to give birth is Zion. Her son,
  > > symbolically called Immanuel, is the small community of believers
  > > who gather around the prophet, his 'disciples' or 'children'
  > > (8.16-18). They are the remnant in the immediate sense anticipated
  > > by the name Shear-jashub. They are the ones who have returned in
  > > repentance to the Lord."
  > >
  > > Regards,
  > >
  > > David Kummerow.


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>From gfsomsel AT juno.com  Tue Apr  5 07:13:52 2005
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To: peterkirk AT qaya.org
Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 07:18:21 -0400
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Isaiah 7
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On Tue, 05 Apr 2005 11:25:17 +0100 Peter Kirk <peterkirk AT qaya.org>
writes:
> George, I should have qualified my statement a bit more, as follows:
>
> "Many of those who reject this possibility do so only because they
> reject the possibility of predictive prophecy... Others do so
> because
> they follow the interpretations of the former group without
> adequately
> examining their basis."
>
> It seems that your a priori position is "Prophecy does not name
> specific
> names -- that is its nature." And this position does not have the
> benefit of the philosophical coherence of the position that
> predictive
> prophecy is impossible. You seem to believe that it is possible but
> only
> if it is very vague. Do you see prophecy as akin to weather
> forecasting,
> seeing the direction in which things are going and making judgments,
> or
> guesses (e.g. that the child in Isaiah 7 would be a boy rather than
> a
> girl), about the future? If so, I would say that you are in fact
> rejecting genuine predictive prophecy, which is a revelation from
> God
> rather than a human prediction based on current circumstances. Or do
> you
> agree with me and Karl that God can and did reveal to the prophets
> specific facts about the future? In that case, why are the specific
>
> facts necessarily vague?
>
> --
> Peter Kirk
> peter AT qaya.org (personal)
> peterkirk AT qaya.org (work)
> http://www.qaya.org/
___________________

If we believe in a God who created the universe, we then confess that he
also established the rules governing it.  I do not subscribe to a deistic
view in which he must then tinker with the mechanism from time to time.
I cite to you God's questions to Job

?2? “Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge?
?3? Gird up your loins like a man,
I will question you, and you shall declare to me.
?4? “Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?
Tell me, if you have understanding.
?5? Who determined its measurements—surely you know!
Or who stretched the line upon it?
?6? On what were its bases sunk,
or who laid its cornerstone,
?7? when the morning stars sang together,
and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
?8? “Or who shut in the sea with doors,
when it burst forth from the womb;
?9? when I made clouds its garment,
and thick darkness its swaddling band,
?10? and prescribed bounds for it,
and set bars and doors,
?11? and said, ‘Thus far shall you come, and no farther,
and here shall your proud waves be stayed’?
?12? “Have you commanded the morning since your days began,
and caused the dawn to know its place,
?13? that it might take hold of the skirts of the earth,
and the wicked be shaken out of it?
and

?5? “Who has let the wild ass go free?
Who has loosed the bonds of the swift ass,
?6? to whom I have given the steppe for his home,
and the salt land for his dwelling place?
?7? He scorns the tumult of the city;
he hears not the shouts of the driver.
?8? He ranges the mountains as his pasture,
and he searches after every green thing.
?9? “Is the wild ox willing to serve you?
Will he spend the night at your crib?
?10? Can you bind him in the furrow with ropes,
or will he harrow the valleys after you?
?11? Will you depend on him because his strength is great,
and will you leave to him your labor?
?12? Do you have faith in him that he will return,
and bring your grain to your threshing floor?
?13? “The wings of the ostrich wave proudly;
but are they the pinions and plumage of love?
?14? For she leaves her eggs to the earth,
and lets them be warmed on the ground,
?15? forgetting that a foot may crush them,
and that the wild beast may trample them.
?16? She deals cruelly with her young, as if they were not hers;
though her labor be in vain, yet she has no fear;
?17? because God has made her forget wisdom,
and given her no share in understanding.
Do you pretend to be wiser than God himself that you require him to
change his dealings with the world which he has created?  This strikes me
as pure hubris of the order of the Beast in Re 13.8 who as a member of
the demonic trinity would seek to determine what must happen.

Yes, it is vague and partial because that is the nature of our knowledge
-- we know in part and see through a glass darkly.

george
gfsomsel
___________
>From peterkirk AT qaya.org  Tue Apr  5 08:18:46 2005
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To: George F Somsel <gfsomsel AT juno.com>
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Isaiah 7
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On 05/04/2005 12:18, George F Somsel wrote:

> ...
>
> If we believe in a God who created the universe, we then confess that
> he also established the rules governing it.  I do not subscribe to a
> deistic view in which he must then tinker with the mechanism from time
> to time. ...


I agree with you. I believe in a God who can give information about the
future to human prophets, and who on occasions has done so.
...

> <#_ftn1>
> Do you pretend to be wiser than God himself that you require him to
> change his dealings with the world which he has created? ...


Absolutely not! I don't know whether God actually did give the name
"Josiah" to a prophet centuries before the time of King Josiah. I just
believe that God was able to do that if he wanted to, and so we cannot
safely presume that he did not. It is you who are showing hubris by
stating that "Prophecy does not name specific names -- that is its
nature." God is not bound by some abstract "nature" of prophecy, or even
by how he more commonly operates through prophecy. If in this case he
chose to name a specific name, and even if this is a unique case (but
other possibles were mentioned), then he is able to do so, and we are
presumptious to claim that he could not have done so.

> ...
> Yes, it is vague and partial because that is the nature of our
> knowledge -- we know in part and see through a glass darkly.
>

So, you mean, God is only able to reveal vague and partial knowledge to
his people? Or just that generally he chooses to do so? Even you NT
quote does not rule out occasional specific information which God may
have chosen to reveal, for his own reasons which we cannot know.

--
Peter Kirk
peter AT qaya.org (personal)
peterkirk AT qaya.org (work)
http://www.qaya.org/



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