Biblical Hebrew Forum

[George F Somsel <gfsomsel AT juno.com>]

On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 11:25:08 -0500 "Karl Randolph" <kwrandolph AT email.com>
writes:
> George:
> 
> To be honest, I’m not sure what the first half of that verse means.
> 
> ȯچηȯÈ̆χ†Á˜¯ 
> YR( KBYRYM L) XQR
> 
> If YR( is a qal verb, should it not agree in aspect with the second 
> verb in the verse? With the effect of the waw on switching aspect, 
> should that not make the qal verb a perfective aspect, in other 
> words, another example of YR( as its root?
> 
> And my questions based on etymologies calls into question the 
> assigning the meaning of “mighty ones” to KBYRYM. And you have no 
> answer for that.
> 
> One option is to make YR( a perfective verb, so that it would read, 
> “He shook out uninvestigable vastnesses and made others stand in 
> their place.” referring to God’s actions.
> 
> You have staked out a position that Job 34:24 is the primary proof 
> passage for the existance of R(( II root with the meaning of 
> smashing, to apply it to Jeremiah 15:12, but you have not 
> demonstrated how it can be so.
> 
> As a person who is largely self-taught in Hebrew, I am not impressed 
> by the mere statements of “experts”, I need to know _why_ they made 
> those statements. And if I don’t see their logic, I’ll say so. I’m 
> willing to be the boy who cries out, “The emporer has no clothes!”
> 
> As a lexicographer, to be certain of the meaning of a lexeme, a 
> proof passage to demonstrate that meaning needs to be clear with no 
> questions. Unfortunately, that is often not the case—often there are 
> no clear proof passages to use to discern the meaning of lexemes, 
> particularly for lexemes used five times or fewer in Tanakh. In 
> those cases we use etymologies, cognate languages and earlier 
> translation (e.g. LXX) and from those make a guess.
> 
> There are no clear proof passages demonstrating the existance of the 
> R(( II root. That doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist, just that the case 
> for it is very weak. Of the five times Lisowski claims it is used, 
> there are grammatical and/or translation reasons in three of the 
> verses to question its existance, and the other two verses are 
> unclear. BDB claimed that there are a few more examples of its use, 
> but even other lexicographers question those.
> 
> In closing, you made the claim that Job 34:24 proves the existance 
> of the R(( II root. How?
> 
> Karl W. Randolph.
____________________
Karl, 

Here is my rendition of Job 34.10-29

 This is the speech of Elihu to Job

10 Therefore, hear me, you reflective men. 
       Forbid to God wickedness
        And to Shaddai injustice
11   According to the work of man He requites him
        And as man's way He recompenses.
12   Truly indeed, God will not act wickedly
        Nor Shaddai pervert judgment
13   Who foisted the earth upon Him?
        Who imposed the whole world?
14   If He should set His mind
       His spirit and breath is removed to Himself,
15   All flesh will perish together
       And man will return to the dust.
16   If [you are] understanding hear this;
        Heed the the sound of my speech.
17   Shall even he who hates it administer justice?
       Will you condemn the righteous, mighty [One]?
18   Him who says to the king, "[You are] worthless!"
        To the nobles, "[You are] criminals!"
19   Who does not fawn on princes
        Nor pass over the plea of the poor
        For the work of His hands are they all.
20   Suddenly, — they die
       At midnight they convulse and pass on
      The mighty depart untouched.
21   For His eyes are upon the ways of man
       All his steps He sees.
22   There is no darkness or deep shadow
       That evildoers may hide there
23   For no other [time] has He established for man
       To come to God for judgment.
24   He smashes the mighty unhesitatingly
        And establishes others after them.
25   Truly He observes their deeds,
       Overthrows them at night
       And they are crushed.
26   On account of wickedness He assails them
       In a place in full view.
27   Because they turned aside from after Him
       And all His ways they did not consider
28  To cause the cry of the poor to come before Him
       But He heard the cry of the humble.
29   When He is quiet then who condemns?
       When He hides [His] face, then who can regard Him?
       Either nation or individual?
george
gfsomsel
___________
>From mshulman AT ix.netcom.com  Sat Jan  8 18:52:08 2005
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From: Moshe Shulman <mshulman AT ix.netcom.com>
Subject: RE: [b-hebrew] Re: Usage of Various Bible Translations
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At 01:37 PM 1/7/2005 -0700, Jerry Shepherd wrote:
>Well said, Jim.  I would add that the other danger is that because a
>student has a had a year of Greek and/or Hebrew, they may now feel
>qualified to make independent novel suggestions as to what the
>Greek/Hebrew "really says."  In the language classes that I teach at
>seminary I always make a point of telling students (with a smiley face)
>that the goal is not to make them independent exegetes, but to keep them
>making ridiculously stupid mistakes.


This is a very good comment. I have many times had discussions with people 
who want to tell me what my Bible says, when they cannot read a word of it, 
even after taking some classes in the language. There is a big difference 
between taking some classes, and having fluency in a language.

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Moshe Shulman   outreach AT judaismsanswer.com 718-436-7705
Judaism's Answer:  http://www.judaismsanswer.com/
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