Biblical Hebrew Forum

[Christoph Eschenbach <gandn1741f AT yahoo.com>]

I enjoy reading Vadim's subversive comments about BH grammar, because they 
reflect what I have been feeling, but never had the guts to say because I 
didn't want to make a fool of myself and I don't have the background to back 
it up. I can understand the concept of perfect and imperfect in English 
(although I have never digested it as I well as I should have), but when I 
try to apply it to BH I have to slow down and do cognitive somersaults. It 
shouldn't be that complicated, all our concepts are foreign to BH. It's not 
only an different grammar, they had a different concept of time, place, 
causality, life, death, beginning and end; their logic wasn't Western logic. 
It's hopeless to learn even a modern language from the grammar - I learned 
French in the 70's in what was called the "audio-visual method", absorbing 
narratives played by tape with slides. With Hebrew I can't think of a better 
solution than to learn modern Hebrew and then study the differences; you 
grasp the differences,
 but there is a quantum leap in 'getting' the logic of the language on its 
own terms - Just my dilettantish two cents - Noam Eitan, Brooklyn, NY



>
>You're talking of the people who wouldn't even understand a notion of
>perfect tense. Those were very simple folks. Don't ascribe to them a love to
>modern grammar.
>
>
>Sincerely,
>
>Vadim Cherny
>

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From: "wattswestmaas" <wattswestmaas AT eircom.net>
To: "UUC" <vadim_lv AT center-tv.net>, <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: RE: [b-hebrew] A Reply - WAV question
Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 16:36:11 +0200
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Hi Vadim,  I could'nt agree with you more!  (By the way I never had a dutch
lesson in my life, nor with modern hebrew or biblical hebrew - so i am at a
disadvantage) So I have to tackle things (At STRATEGIC MOMENTS) from a
purely grammatical perspective.  If your students can speak hebrew within a
week - When are you visiting Ireland?

So I must say at this juncture, in order to retain the original thread, my
hidden motive for asking the question as based upon this one very important
point: The Written Biblical hebrew handed down to us is very much a 'Faith
orientated' exposition (leaving out the historical and elements of poetical
aspect), influnced particularly by the promise of what was/is to come from
their perspective; The language in great part reflects this and so the
element of debate that surrounds this verbal stucture or that verbal
structure (IE, has it happened or is it to happen, or happened it then?)?
reflects the uncertainty of many to truly classify the imperfectum et
perfectum. It has rules - yes, there are grammatical borders - yes but there
are also exceptions and I feel that THEIR FAITH at that time places some of
these rules out of the accepted category and into a minor grammatical
deviation of its own, I seek not to be drawn into debate (this is out of my
league) I seek only to grasp some difficult issues ok?


Regards Chris.




Dear Chris,

That's because you were taught Dutch the wrong way, in the first place.
Somehow the children, being open-minded, can subconsciously distill the real
laws of the language from the mass of the empirical evidence. This is close
to what Chomsky says, actually. There is a built-in mechanism in our minds
for understanding the structure of language; but this window is closed in
adults.
My students start speaking Hebrew in a week, and the rest is only a matter
of learning more roots.


Best regards,

Vadim Cherny

> You say some very helpful things but this one comment defies explanation,
> My Two children aged 6 and 8 could not speak a word of English 11 months
> ago.  THey went straight into an Irish school and after just 4 months were
> speaking intelligible English and after 6 months they matched every other
8
> year old child's english.  Are there any adults capable of such enormous
> feats?
>
> It took me a massive 4 years to speak  Dutch on a level equal to native
> speakers AND I HAD TO LEARN GRAMMATICAL RULES AND LEARN HOW TO THINK IN
> THEIR GRAMMATICAL WAY.
>
> Hence I appreciate the importance of my own question.
>
> Respectfully yours
>
> Chris.
>
>
>
> Chris,
>
> You're talking of the people who wouldn't even understand a notion of
> perfect tense. Those were very simple folks. Don't ascribe to them a love
to
> modern grammar.
>
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Vadim Cherny
>
> >
> > Everything that you all have said has clarified a few things and I
> > appreciate the ways in which you have explained things.
> >
> > One last thing;  given that the imperfect can be so easily used to
express
> > an action that WILL take place at an unknown point in time in the
future,
> > why use the Perfect to do the same job?  --  I dare to take an
> > UNproffessional leap here and offer a thought??  --  Could the idea
behind
> > the imperfect be that:  This FUTURE event has a beginning but no known
> end,
> > whereas the perfect expresses an event to take place in the future that
> has
> > BOTH a beginning AND a KNOWN end.
> >
> > Since I have not had  the years behind me to acquaint myself with all
the
> > facts I am sure that I am incorrect, however I needed to suggest this.
> >
> > Thanks Chris.
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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> >
>
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>

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