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  • From: <david.kimbrough AT charter.net>
  • To: kwrandolph <kwrandolph AT email.com>, "b-hebrew" <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Cc:
  • Subject: [b-hebrew] Hyksos, Isreal, and Exodus
  • Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 17:59:16 +0000

Karl,

Many writers have, like yourself, assoicated the Isrealites
with the Hyksos. They both arrived in Egypt from the
Levant sometime in the mid-2nd millenium BC. Genesis 47
is quite provocative on this issue of the Joseph and the
Hyksos. It tells the story of how the Pharaoh (who was not
always ?ethnically? Egyptian as we know) gave Josephs
brothers land to raise the flocks and charge over the
Pharaoh?s flocks as well (a sign of favor and a position of
some authority). Later, through Josephs fiscal shrewdness
and famine, Joseph was able to acquire all of the land in
Egypt for the Pharaoh. The land had been in ?Egyptian?
hands but after Joseph?s actions, it was in Pharaoh?s!

Some have argued that the Hyksos were an ethnically mixed
group of conquorers from the Levant, rather like the
?Mongols Hoards ? which included many non-Mongols such as
Tartars and Turks. The Isrealites might have been one
element of this group, or a group that arrived later.
These Pharaohs would have been friendly to new arrivals,
and possible allies, from the levant.

The ?new king who did not know Joseph? it has been argued
could have been the Ahmose I who expelled the Hyksos (who
subsequently retreated to Caanan). He would have viewed
the Isrealite shepherds of the east delta as remainants of
the hated foreign oppresor. He may have enslaved them or
at least made their life bitter. Following this line of
reasoning, the Exodus would occured some time after this
event, which would still be hundreds of years before
Ramesses.

>
> From: kwrandolph <kwrandolph AT email.com>
> Date: 2004/05/25 Tue AM 05:41:11 GMT
> To: "b-hebrew" <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
> Subject: [b-hebrew] Jericho, Rameses, & San Fransisco
>
> Dear David:
>
> I read a book a while back attributing Beitek (sp?) claim
that the
> site of the Hyksos capital, Avaris, was built on the site
of an
> Egyptian port that had a pre-Hyksos name of pi-Rameses.
That Israel
> called it by its pre-Hyksos name indicates that they had
come to
> Egypt before the Hyksos. After the Hyksos were expelled,
the site
> remained unimportant until the time of Rameses I or
thereabouts.
>
> Thus there is no need to posit either a late date of
Jacob's arrival
> in Egypt nor that later writers were writing
anachronistically.
>
> Years ago I came to the conclusion that Exodus occurred
during the
> time of the Hyksos who were concerned that Israel would
pose a danger
> to them. Israel called the Hyksos pharaoh "Egyptian"
because he ruled
> Egypt (the same way later writers called the Mongol
rulers "Chinese"
> or in more recent times the Manchus). The fly in my
understanding is
> that the traditional dates for the Hyksos is earlier than
the Exodus,
> but then I learned that other writers more learned than I
also
> question the traditional dates, making my understanding a
possibility.
>
> If the traditional dates are off by two or more centuries
as some
> have claimed, that would put the beginning of the iron
age at the
> time of King David. Tanakh mentions that David ran
extensive iron
> works. That would explain how Israel, a small, weak
country with a
> history of being a vassal nation to its neighbors, could
suddenly
> become a world power under David: he had wrested the
secret of
> tempering iron into steel from the Philistines and armed
his soldiers
> with steel while his enemies were all still armed with
bronze.
>
> While my understanding is not the statements of an expert
(my main
> interest being lexicography) I don't see how it can be
ruled out.
>
> Karl W. Randolph.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <david.kimbrough AT charter.net>
>
> > A different way to look at the issue is to consider
that
> > the OT in four separate locations assoicates the
Isrealites
> > with a region of Egypt called "Rameses" which appears
to be
> > located in the North-East corner of the delta (Gen
47:11,
> > Exd 12:37 Num 33:3, Num 33:5). " Rameses " is not
> > inconsistent with the city of "Pi-Rameses ", near "Pi-
Thom".
> > Although it is not certain when Pi-Ramesses was built,
it
> > was probably not built before Ramesses I (who was born
in
> > the north eastern delta and died in 1290 BC) although
it
> > may have been built by Seti I. If we take the OT at
face
> > value and assume that "Rameses " is the same as "Pi-
> > Ramesses ", then according to Gen 47:11 Joseph settled
in
> > Rameses no earlier than the mid 1200?s BC.
> >
> > Of course this may be an anachronism. If it is
assumed
> > that the author(s) of Genesis, Exodus, and Numbers
were
> > writing many centuries after the fact, they may have
used
> > the name of a region of Egypt that they and their
readers
> > were familiar with, not knowing it was built after
then
> > exodus.
> >
> > All of this is assuming the actually was a battle of
> > Jericho. If for the moment that it is assumed that
City IV
> > was in fact destroyed by fire as Kenyon argued, that
does
> > not mean that it was destroyed by the Isrealites or
that
> > the fire was the result of warfare. Both the cities
of
> > Chicago and London were destroyed by fire that had
nothing
> > to do with war. In 1908 most of San Fransisco was
> > destroyed by fires caused by an earthquake. If three
> > thousand years from now archeologists were to examine
the
> > ruins of San Fransisco, they would find a layer of
upended
> > foundations and carcoal. They might conclude that San
> > Fransisco was destroyed by invading isrealites.
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
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>

David Kimbrough
San Gabriel




  • [b-hebrew] Hyksos, Isreal, and Exodus, david.kimbrough, 05/25/2004

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