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b-hebrew - Re: [b-hebrew] Re: Prov. 30:19

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  • From: "Karl Randolph" <kwrandolph AT email.com>
  • To: "Hebrew" <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Re: Prov. 30:19
  • Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 19:52:25 -0500

Dear Peter:
I plan to have this as my last posting on this subject, because I am repeating what I said before.
First of all, a sexual reference does not bother me, as there are far more explicit ones in Tanakh, assuming that this is one.
Secondly, (LMH referring to a young woman refers to one who is unknown, as does its root. This is in contrast to a man knowing his wife and she becomes pregnant. Of the various discussions from many viewpoints I read on Isaiah 7:14, the ones I find most convincing are those that insist that (LMH must mean "virgin".
Thirdly, you have not shown, at least in a way that I can recognize, a parallel between heavens, bare rock, sea and virgin.
Fourthly, first in the fourfold use of DRK in the verse, indicating that the parallelism should be with the road and the action connected therewith, and not the object (heavens, bare rock, sea and virgin), and secondly there is a tradition that is different from the tradition you cite and predates it, one that fits the parallelism of DRK in a way that you have not shown that yours fits.
My original question started with looking at the parallelism of DRK, looking at the root of (LMH, namely (LM which means "to be unknown" or in hifil "to cause to be unknown, i.e. hide" and proposed a noun referring to the unknown. Thanks to another responder on this mailing list, he pointed out that the LXX has a translation that fits the parallelism of DRK in the same way as my proposed noun, also fits the root (LM in a similar way as mine, and also fits a grammatical construct.
In conclusion, while I'm quite ready to give up my proposed meaning seeing as it is based only on the parallelism and verbal root, I will go with the LXX as it is based not only on the parallelism of DRK, and the verbal root, but it adds evidence of a prior tradition to the tradition that you cite. Shouldn't an earlier tradition be closer to the original meaning than a later tradition?
Unless you can add to this discussion something new that has not been brought up so far, I will not respond to it. To preserve the gentility of this mailing list, shall we declare this thread closed? No one needs to respond, just not post anymore. :-)
Karl W. Randolph.
----- Original Message ----- From: Peter Kirk <peterkirk AT qaya.org>
On 06/10/2003 16:01, Karl Randolph wrote: >Dear Rodney: > >I am a little surprised at the response I am getting from this thread. > >To start out, I have never been able to make heads or tails out of this verse. What
sort
>of road does a man have in a virgin? The moment of a physical entrance of a man
in
>knowing a woman, she is no longer a virgin. Therefore, we cannot be talking
about
>the physical action. But if we are not talking about a physical action, how does the >man remain the subject? Is not the subject then really the virgin's hopes,
expectations
>and dreams? > > Two answers to this one. One is that `alma does not mean strictly a virgin in the medical sense, rather a young unmarried woman who was generally assumed to be a virgin. See any discussion of Isaiah 7:14. The other is that according to your argument no one can ever be accused of "deflowering" or raping a virgin because she is no longer a virgin after the act - but that is no defence as what matters is that she was one before the act. And a third one: we may not be talking about the sex act itself, but rather about the man's active part in winning the girl's attention and affection. The suggestion that this is about "the virgin's hopes, expectations and dreams" doesn't really fit with the male-dominated world of Proverbs. > >I proposed that a different definition for (LMH consistent with the unpointed text
and
>grammar would give a reading consistant with the parallelism of the rest of the
verse.
> >As I understand the response, it is that one cannot go against 2000 years of
tradition. ...
> I think this shows that you have totally misunderstood the response. References to older versions etc have been meant to show you that there is no evidence at all for your understanding of the word and so it must be totally speculative. You can reject tradition if you like, but you need something to put in its place if you are to read the Hebrew Bible itself. You can't just say that each word means what you want it to mean or what you think fits the context best. I suppose you could try to decipher the text from first principles without reference to dictionaries or older translations, but I don't think you'll succeed - Champollion relied on an ancient translation when he deciphered Egyptian hieroglyphs, and Ventris on his knowledge of Greek when he deciphered Linear B. So in one way or another you are dependent on tradition. > >... Why not? After all, the LXX, which predates the 2000 year old tradition, has a >different reading. If my proposed definition is wrong, and it could be, why not
consider
>the LXX translation? It also fits the grammar, parallelism and unpointed text. Yes, I >know there are problems with the LXX, but why not at least hear them out on this >verse? ... > The LXX reading is certainly worth considering, but I would reject it because it offers no real parallel to sky, rock and sea, whereas the understanding as young woman offers an excellent parallel and makes this into a very vivid image. I just can't understand why you persistently reject this image. Do you perhaps have problems with the idea that there might be sexually explicit language in a holy book? Well, whether you like it or not there is, and much more so than this passage. -- Peter Kirk peter AT qaya.org (personal) peterkirk AT qaya.org (work) http://www.qaya.org/
--
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