Biblical Hebrew Forum

[Laurence Schell <laurenceschell AT yahoo.co.uk>]

I understand the Jewish people were fairly literate, and the place of 
literacy education was the synagogue, with the Law as the primary text. This 
means that Hebrew would have been more than a language in use only for 
scholarship and religion. It was used for education as well.
 
Our culture's tendency to compartmentalize the religious and secular would 
have been foreign to the Hebrew culture. But the Law was not simply kept like 
two stone tablets under a museum display case to be studied by the eyes of 
scholars and priests only. We tend to categorize the Law as "religious." But 
in all cultures it is necessary to be somewhat conversant in the law of that 
culture, as it affects everyday life. In fact, the rabbis envisioned it 
permeating all of life. It would have been paramount to know the Law; and for 
the literate Jew, it may have been easier to read than Aramaic, even if they 
spoke Aramaic fluently, because they were taught their literacy in the Hebrew 
language of the Law.
 
I suspect that a high percentage of the Jewish population could at least 
read, if not speak the Law, fluently, because of Jewish literacy education in 
the synagogue and the degree to which the Law permeated everyday dealings.
 
Sincerely, Laurence Schell

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Today's Topics:

1. RE: When did Hebrew cease to be a commonly spoken language?
(Ken Penner)
2. RE: When did Hebrew cease to be a commonly spoken language?
(Schmuel)
3. Re: When did Hebrew cease to be a commonly spoken language?
(Karl Randolph)
4. RE: When did Hebrew cease to be a commonly spoken language?
(Trevor & Julie Peterson)
5. RE: When did Hebrew cease to be a commonly spoken language?
(Liz Fried)
6. When did Hebrew cease to be a commonly spoken language?
(Michael Abernathy)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 13:03:45 -0400
From: "Ken Penner" 

Subject: RE: [b-hebrew] When did Hebrew cease to be a commonly spoken
language?
To: 
Message-ID: <000401c331cd$c114d310$1cc17182@desktop>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I'd also like to see evidence for both sides: Hebrew dying out and Hebrew
remaining an everyday spoken language.
I recently delivered a paper to the Canadian Society of Biblical Studies on
the question of whether the Greek words Hebrais/Hebraisti refer to Hebrew or
Aramaic, and necessarily had to touch on the likelihood of Hebrew surviving
as a spoken language.

I'd be interested to hear how put it all together:

Why are parts of Ezra and Daniel in Aramaic?
Why and when did the Targumim appear?
Why are there more Second Temple Aramaic inscriptions than Hebrew?
Why is so much early Second Temple religious literature in Aramaic (the
several parts of Enoch, Tobit, Genesis Apocryphon, New Jerusalem, etc.)?
Why do the Maccabean coins have Hebrew rather than Aramaic?
Why are so many more Semitic words (even those called Hebraisti) in the
Christian scriptures Aramaic rather than Hebrew?
Why do the Aramaic Bar Kokhba letters outnumber the Hebrew ones?
Why is the inscription on Jesus' cross said to have been in Roman, Greek,
and "Hebraisti", without mention of Aramaic?
Why does a Bar Kokhba letter-writer apologize for writing in Greek rather
than "ebraesti", without mentioning Aramaic?
Why does Philo say the Bible was written in "Chaldean"?
Do any ancient writers ever call Aramaic Hebrew?

I have some hypotheses, but I'd like to hear your views first.

Ken Penner, M.C.S. (Biblical Languages, Greek Focus), M.A. (Hebrew Poetry)
Ph.D. (cand.), McMaster University
pennerkm AT mcmaster.ca
Flash! Pro: http://socserv.socsci.mcmaster.ca/westerholm/flash or
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http://sensoft.nav.to


> While acknowledging that there came more concentrated
> Aramaic and Greek influences after the GALUT BAVEL,
> the evidence is pretty convincing that Hebrew remained
> an "everyday spoken language" in Judea and even among
> AM HA-ARETZ in Galilee until, maybe, the 2nd century
> C.E. So why do you believe as you do?



------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 13:58:05 -0400
From: Schmuel 
Subject: RE: [b-hebrew] When did Hebrew cease to be a commonly spoken
language?
To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20030613135132.071eed60 AT pop.escape.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hi b-hebrew,

Ken Penner wrote:
>I'd also like to see evidence for both sides: Hebrew dying out and Hebrew
>remaining an everyday spoken language.
>I recently delivered a paper to the Canadian Society of Biblical Studies on
>the question of whether the Greek words Hebrais/Hebraisti refer to Hebrew or
>Aramaic, and necessarily had to touch on the likelihood of Hebrew surviving
>as a spoken language.

Schmuel
Can the Greek word also refer to both ? ie. the family of semitic languages...
ie .. does it have to be an either/or proposition ? 

Is your paper, or a summary, available ?

There has been a lot of stuff said on this issue over on another forum, often 
with
little scholarly backup, sometimes with hot air, and it would be nice to see 
a 
scholarly summary, including the NT usage, and the Josephus usage, and 
whatever
else you have found :-)

>I'd be interested to hear how put it all together:
>
>Why are parts of Ezra and Daniel in Aramaic?
>Why and when did the Targumim appear?
>Why are there more Second Temple Aramaic inscriptions than Hebrew?
>Why is so much early Second Temple religious literature in Aramaic (the
>several parts of Enoch, Tobit, Genesis Apocryphon, New Jerusalem, etc.)?
>Why do the Maccabean coins have Hebrew rather than Aramaic?
>Why are so many more Semitic words (even those called Hebraisti) in the
>Christian scriptures Aramaic rather than Hebrew?
>Why do the Aramaic Bar Kokhba letters outnumber the Hebrew ones?
>Why is the inscription on Jesus' cross said to have been in Roman, Greek,
>and "Hebraisti", without mention of Aramaic?
>Why does a Bar Kokhba letter-writer apologize for writing in Greek rather
>than "ebraesti", without mentioning Aramaic?
>Why does Philo say the Bible was written in "Chaldean"?
>Do any ancient writers ever call Aramaic Hebrew?

Interesting list of questions :-)

>I have some hypotheses, but I'd like to hear your views first.

After you Alphonse.. most definitely, Gaston :-) 

Shalom,
Steven Avery
Queens, NY
www.messiahresearch.com

>Ken Penner, M.C.S. (Biblical Languages, Greek Focus), M.A. (Hebrew Poetry)
>Ph.D. (cand.), McMaster University
>pennerkm AT mcmaster.ca
>Flash! Pro: http://socserv.socsci.mcmaster.ca/westerholm/flash or
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flash_pro/join or 
>http://sensoft.nav.to

schmuel AT escape.com

Messianic_Apologetic-subscribe AT yahoogroups.com
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic/ 


------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2003 01:51:03 -0500
From: "Karl Randolph" 
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] When did Hebrew cease to be a commonly spoken
language?
To: "Hebrew" 
Message-ID: <20030614065103.1283.qmail AT email.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Dear Michael Millier:

I have very little direct evidence. Ken Penner in his letter raises questions 
based on evidence I lack.

However, I noticed that, assuming that the authors and dates are as the Bible 
claims, there was a certain amount of language change from Torah to Jeremiah, 
but the post exilic authors returned to a style more akin to that found in 
Torah. In other words, there was a discontinuity of language development. 
That suggests to me that while Hebrew continued to be studied and spoken, it 
was no longer the primary language of the speakers.

Other clues include the extensive Aramaic insertions into Daniel and Ezra, 
where they expected the readers to understand them (contrast to 2 Kings 
18:26), and the example of Esther 2:1 where the author inserted the Aramaic 
term GZR for the Hebrew XQQ (how many more are there like that?), as well as 
the historical situation of the people having been scattered in an Aramaic 
millieu, all point to Hebrew having become the scholars’ language and the 
language of religion (temple and synagog), official documents and coins that 
the common people could understand, but that the common language for everyday 
use was Aramaic. When Paul spoke to the crowd in Acts 22:2, the Hebrew 
language was specifically mentioned whereas times when Aramaic was spoken the 
language was not an issue, again a clue that Hebrew was then the scholars’ 
language.

I don’t have proof for my belief that Hebrew ceased being the everyday, 
common language, nor even strong evidence, just a haunch based on disparate 
clues, and my belief could very well be wrong.

Karl W. Randolph.

----- Original Message -----
From: Deborah Millier 

> On the "Are peh, law and kaf aspirated in Biblical
> Hebrew" thread, K. Randolph made this passing comment:
> 
> > I personally believe that the Hebrew 
> > language, after the Galut Babel, 
> > pretty much died as an everyday 
> > spoken language and was under 
> > pressure to change from Aramaic and 
> > later Greek, and it did. 
> 
> While acknowledging that there came more concentrated
> Aramaic and Greek influences after the GALUT BAVEL,
> the evidence is pretty convincing that Hebrew remained
> an "everyday spoken language" in Judea and even among
> AM HA-ARETZ in Galilee until, maybe, the 2nd century
> C.E. So why do you believe as you do?
> 
> KOL TUV,
> -- Michael Millier
-- 
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------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2003 05:34:41 -0400
From: "Trevor & Julie Peterson" <06peterson AT cua.edu>
Subject: RE: [b-hebrew] When did Hebrew cease to be a commonly spoken
language?
To: "'Hebrew'" 
Message-ID: <000201c33258$3257edc0$179cfea9@SPEDRSON>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

Karl wrote:
> 
> However, I noticed that, assuming that the authors and dates are as
the
> Bible claims, there was a certain amount of language change from Torah
to
> Jeremiah, but the post exilic authors returned to a style more akin to
> that found in Torah. In other words, there was a discontinuity of
language
> development. That suggests to me that while Hebrew continued to be
studied
> and spoken, it was no longer the primary language of the speakers.

Many people have observed a post-exilic discontinuity in the development
of Hebrew. Although some of this is attributable to contact with
Aramaic, it has long been shown that much of the interference comes from
dialectal difference within Hebrew itself. Some of this latter
difference is probably chronological, resulting from the attempt to
uphold an ancient literary standard that was by this point very
different from the stage of the language being spoken; some of it is
probably geographical, since not everyone would necessarily have spoken
Hebrew exactly the same in every region. The more the spoken Hebrew
dialects departed from the literary standard (and from each other), the
harder it would be for writers to keep their vernacular from bleeding
through. The same thing seems to have happened within Aramaic, BTW.
> 
> Other clues include the extensive Aramaic insertions into Daniel and
Ezra,
> where they expected the readers to understand them (contrast to 2
Kings
> 18:26),

The Aramaic in Daniel and Ezra is still largely a mystery. It's hard to
say where they were written, or who was intended to understand them. It
also seems that we would have to say equally (or more so) that the
readers were expected to understand Hebrew. One possible explanation
would be that everyone was speaking Aramaic but still able to understand
Hebrew for its religious value, but it's also possible that they were
genuinely bilingual--perhaps more than possible, since they were
obviously a culture subject to another that imposed an official language
on them. (Witness Hispanic Americans who can speak both English and
Spanish fluently.)

> and the example of Esther 2:1 where the author inserted the
> Aramaic term GZR for the Hebrew XQQ (how many more are there like
that?),

Again, this sort of interference can take place just because two
languages are in close contact, but that doesn't mean they didn't speak
Hebrew. The infusion of French loans into English that came with the
Norman conquest does not mean that English became only a literary
language. This influence applied across the board in English, but the
language is no less living today.

> as well as the historical situation of the people having been
scattered in
> an Aramaic millieu, all point to Hebrew having become the scholars'
> language and the language of religion (temple and synagog), official
> documents and coins that the common people could understand, but that
the
> common language for everyday use was Aramaic.

Again, I would point to any number of minority languages that are
preserved to varying degrees by the rank and file of their native
speakers. Spanish in the U.S. is a good example, because it shows that a
language can remain fully active while in a cultural situation where
another language is standard. Even a language as obscure as Syriac is
not just a liturgical language today but also a kitchen language,
meaning that it is still spoken in the homes of Syrian Christians.

> When Paul spoke to the crowd
> in Acts 22:2, the Hebrew language was specifically mentioned whereas
times
> when Aramaic was spoken the language was not an issue, again a clue
that
> Hebrew was then the scholars' language.

The issue in this scenario was that he did not speak in Greek (which
probably was the norm when Gentiles were around). I don't know that we
can say much about Hebrew vs. Aramaic from this.

You might want to do some reading on this subject. It has been
extensively discussed, and I think there's quite a bit of evidence
suggesting that Hebrew actually was a spoken language, side-by-side with
Aramaic.

Trevor Peterson
CUA/Semitics


------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2003 08:31:02 -0400
From: "Liz Fried" 

Subject: RE: [b-hebrew] When did Hebrew cease to be a commonly spoken
language?
To: "'Hebrew'" 
Message-ID: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"


Dear Trevor,
You wrote:
>
>
> You might want to do some reading on this subject. It has been
> extensively discussed, and I think there's quite a bit of evidence
> suggesting that Hebrew actually was a spoken language, side-by-side with
> Aramaic.

What seems to belie this are the Aramaic papyri from Elephantine.
I"ve been trying to understand why Jews writing private letters to each
other
would be in Aramaic. One reason may be that the scribes they used only wrote
Aramaic, not Hebrew. Another reason tho may be that the people themselves
did
not speak Hebrew. Would we be able to tell the difference do you think?

Liz



------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2003 09:48:15 -0500
From: "Michael Abernathy" 
Subject: [b-hebrew] When did Hebrew cease to be a commonly spoken
language?
To: "B-Hebrew" 
Message-ID: <001401c33283$fda724c0$8970c541@Default>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Liz commented on the fact that the papyri from Elephantine were written in 
Aramaic. This is relevent evidence for what was happening outside of Israel. 
One question that must be raised is, "Did the Jews in Israel and the Jews in 
foreign lands continue to speak the same language?" There is some evidence 
that Aramaic was used as a trade language outside of Judah and eventually 
adopted by the Jews while the Jews in the Holy Land continued to use Hebrew 
as their primary language. For example, you will find that most of what was 
written in Israel in the first century was in Hebrew. You can also find 
references in the Talmud to Jews in Jerusalem seeking a translator because 
someone asked a question in Aramaic. On the other hand, I remember a 
reference to a Jew outside of Israel asking his maid to explain what the 
Hebrew in a passage meant.
Sincerely,
Michael Abernathy
>From jkilmon AT historian.net Sat Jun 14 11:59:43 2003
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Karl Randolph" 
To: "Hebrew" 
Sent: Saturday, June 14, 2003 1:51 AM
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] When did Hebrew cease to be a commonly spoken
language?


> Dear Michael Millier:
>
> I have very little direct evidence. Ken Penner in his letter raises
questions based on evidence I lack.
>
> However, I noticed that, assuming that the authors and dates are as the
Bible claims, there was a certain amount of language change from Torah to
Jeremiah, but the post exilic authors returned to a style more akin to that
found in Torah. In other words, there was a discontinuity of language
development. That suggests to me that while Hebrew continued to be studied
and spoken, it was no longer the primary language of the speakers.
>
> Other clues include the extensive Aramaic insertions into Daniel and Ezra,
where they expected the readers to understand them (contrast to 2 Kings
18:26), and the example of Esther 2:1 where the author inserted the Aramaic
term GZR for the Hebrew XQQ (how many more are there like that?), as well as
the historical situation of the people having been scattered in an Aramaic
millieu, all point to Hebrew having become the scholars' language and the
language of religion (temple and synagog), official documents and coins that
the common people could understand, but that the common language for
everyday use was Aramaic. When Paul spoke to the crowd in Acts 22:2, the
Hebrew language was specifically mentioned whereas times when Aramaic was
spoken the language was not an issue, again a clue that Hebrew was then the
scholars' language.
>
> I don't have proof for my belief that Hebrew ceased being the everyday,
common language, nor even strong evidence, just a haunch based on disparate
clues, and my belief could very well be wrong.

One strong indicator, IMO, for the "language of the street" is the writing
OF the "people of the street," the larger group between literate and
illiterate that statististics overlook...the quasiliterate. This takes its
form most noticeably on ossuaria where the family members of the deceased
scrawled the names on the box in what is normally a graffito style. No
better example is the extremely awkward scratches of the High Priest
Caiaphas' name and, perhaps, the second inscription on the James Ossuary,
scratched after the scribe's part on the occasion of the bone collection.
ALL of the Semitic inscriptions on all of the catalogued ossuaria are in
Aramaic. The language commonly spoken will be the language commonly
misspelled or grammatically incorrect on ossuaria, ostraca, graffiti, and
that is nearly exclusively Aramaic. I also think that loan words will drift
from the common tongue to the language of literati and liturgy as
demonstrated in the peppering of 2nd temple Hebrew with Aramaic loan words

=== message truncated ===

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Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] When did Hebrew cease to be a commonly spoken 
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Excellent question; and this has been discussed, as mentioned, extensively.

Jack’s response is persuasive but not conclusive. Since only the well-to-do 
could afford ossuaries, the language inscribed on them was not necessarily 
that of the common people. 

One also has to ask oneself in this context how Mishnaic Hebrew came to be 
developed? It is hard to believe, for a number of reasons, that this is 
purely a scholarly development. 

Another anecdote from rabbinic literature, for which alas I can’t provide an 
exact reference, praises the maid of R. Yehudah "the Prince" (ha-Nasi)), who 
lived around 200 CE, for speaking Hebrew fluently. This clearly indicates 
that such an ability was considered a rarity, at least for a maid.

E. Ben Yehudah, the great Hebrew lexicographer, addressed this subject 
specifically in the introductory volume to his Great Dictionary. Citing 
sentences from rabbinical times where the speaker shifts from Hebrew to 
Aramaic and vice versa, he demonstrated, to my mind brilliantly, that these 
people were bilingual. Of course here one is dealing with a highly 
specialized segment of the population. 

Finally people who lived before 1948 in Mandatory Palestine would have been 
surprised to hear Jack’s assertion that Hebrew was not a living language 
then. Hebrew was the only language in which the education was conducted for 
the Jewish population; it was the language used in the street and commerce, 
press, etc. 

 And, Jack let us hope that Yequm Purqan min Shamayah!

Uri 


Jack Kilmon <jkilmon AT historian.net> wrote:----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Abernathy" 
To: "B-Hebrew" 
Sent: Saturday, June 14, 2003 9:48 AM
Subject: [b-hebrew] When did Hebrew cease to be a commonly spoken language?


> Liz commented on the fact that the papyri from Elephantine were written in
Aramaic. This is relevent evidence for what was happening outside of
Israel. One question that must be raised is, "Did the Jews in Israel and
the Jews in foreign lands continue to speak the same language?" There is
some evidence that Aramaic was used as a trade language outside of Judah and
eventually adopted by the Jews while the Jews in the Holy Land continued to
use Hebrew as their primary language. For example, you will find that most
of what was written in Israel in the first century was in Hebrew.


This needs to be clarified. If your sample is the DSS, as a social pocket
for Hebrew, Qumran does not refelect common usage. Most of what was written
by the common folk (graffiti) is Aramaic. The publications on 1st century
language use often divide the population into the literate (less than 5%)
and the illiterate but omit a larger group among the common folk..the
quasi-literate who scrawled the ossuaria and graffiti...all exclusively
Aramaic. Graffiti is in the language of the common folk.

Additionally, what language is written by the literati is not necessarily
that spoken on the street. The Vatican archives will lead you to believe
that Latin was the spoken language of medieval Italy.

> You can also find references in the Talmud to Jews in Jerusalem seeking a
translator because someone asked a question in Aramaic.

When and where? This anecdote does not explain the use of Aramaic targumim,


> On the other hand, I remember a reference to a Jew outside of Israel
asking his maid to explain what the Hebrew in a passage meant.

Another anecdote without details. Hebrew had not been commonly spoken as a
language between the 5th century BCE and 1948.


Jack

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From: "Karl Randolph" <kwrandolph AT email.com>
To: "Hebrew" <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2003 02:12:21 -0500
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] When did Hebrew cease to be a commonly spoken 
language?
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With pleasure, I think most of us would like to see you evidence. I expected 
that you had already posted it.

This has been fascinating to see the depth of discussion stirred up by an 
offhand remark.

Yours, Karl W. Randolph.


----- Original Message -----
From: Deborah Millier <deborahmillier AT yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2003 11:38:57 -0700 (PDT)
To: Karl Randolph <kwrandolph AT email.com>
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] When did Hebrew cease to be a commonly spoken 
language?

> Shalom again Karl Randolph,
> 
> As you posted your own personal reply, I trust I can
> take that as permission for me to then send the list
> some of the evidence to which I referred in response
> to your message me-ward.  
> 
> B'RAKHOT,
> 
> -- Michael Millier
> 
> __________________________________
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