Biblical Hebrew Forum

["Kurt Noll" <KLNoll AT kwc.edu>]

Lisbeth S. Fried wrote (in part):
I disagree that the people of pre-Exilic Judah were polytheistic. ...
All the polemics that you read in Ezekiel, etc. are just their way of
explaining the disasters. The temple was captured, the people deported
-- ERGO they must have worshipped other gods.
***
Wow, Liz, this is quite a bold assertion.  I certainly agree with your
interpretation of Ezekiel (and see it as one of many reasons to view
Ezekiel as Persian-era, not Babylonian-era in its present form), I am
surprised by the boldness of your take on the Iron Age II evidence. 
Since I always respect your research, I am curious.  How do you
interpret, for example, the research of, say, Mark S. Smith (to name
just one) - _The Early History of God_ and _The Origins of Biblical
Monotheism_?

K.

*********************************
Dr. Kurt L. Noll
Kentucky Wesleyan College
3000 Frederica Street
Owensboro, KY  42302
http://www.kwc.edu/academic/religion/index.html
(270) 852-3220
KLNoll AT kwc.edu

"It is difficult to get a man to understand something
when his salary depends on his not understanding it."
                                            - Upton Sinclair
**********
>From KLNoll AT kwc.edu  Thu Feb 27 13:58:42 2003
Return-Path: <KLNoll AT kwc.edu>
Delivered-To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Received: from CHIEF.KWC.EDU (chief.kwc.edu [208.47.93.114])
        by happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5B3420006
        for <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>;
        Thu, 27 Feb 2003 13:58:41 -0500 (EST)
Received: from KWC-DOMAIN-MTA by CHIEF.KWC.EDU
        with Novell_GroupWise; Thu, 27 Feb 2003 12:58:21 -0600
Message-Id: <se5e0b6d.010 AT CHIEF.KWC.EDU>
X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 6.0.2
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 12:57:44 -0600
From: "Kurt Noll" <KLNoll AT kwc.edu>
To: <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] The Priestly Stratum - dating by language
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Content-Disposition: inline
X-BeenThere: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1
Precedence: list
List-Id: A forum on the Hebrew Bible, its language and interpretation
        <b-hebrew.lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew>,
        <mailto:b-hebrew-request AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/b-hebrew>
List-Post: <mailto:b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Help: <mailto:sympa AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=HELP>
List-Subscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew>,
        <mailto:b-hebrew-request AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 18:58:42 -0000

Søren Holst wrote (in part):
...The only way to demonstrate that this is actually possible, would be
to show that a text who talks about events in the Persian period is
actually written in the same sort of Hebrew as Genesis-Kings. Precisely
this, Danish scholar Martin Ehrensvärd has done in his recently defended
ph.d. thesis (analyzing texts like Haggai, Malachi and Zecharaiah and
finding no more features of "late" Biblical Hebrew in them than in, say,
the Books of Samuel). The relevant parts of the dissertation are due out
as an article in a volume edited by Ian Young (sorry, I can't find the
title).
***
Fascinating.  I toyed around with Haggai on a similar hunch, but never
got round to publishing the work.  I will look forward to reading this. 
I suspect (from my own work, which is probably not as good) that this
will be a valuable contribution.  Thanks for telling us about it.

K.

*********************************
Dr. Kurt L. Noll
Kentucky Wesleyan College
3000 Frederica Street
Owensboro, KY  42302
http://www.kwc.edu/academic/religion/index.html
(270) 852-3220
KLNoll AT kwc.edu

"It is difficult to get a man to understand something
when his salary depends on his not understanding it."
                                            - Upton Sinclair
**********
>From lizfried AT umich.edu  Thu Feb 27 14:19:53 2003
Return-Path: <lizfried AT umich.edu>
Delivered-To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Received: from changeofhabit.mr.itd.umich.edu (changeofhabit.mr.itd.umich.edu
        [141.211.144.17])
        by happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEFAB20006
        for <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>;
        Thu, 27 Feb 2003 14:19:52 -0500 (EST)
Received: from lizfried (pcp02370745pcs.sanarb01.mi.comcast.net
        [68.43.236.53])
        by changeofhabit.mr.itd.umich.edu (8.9.3/3.2r) with SMTP id OAA01411
        for <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>;
        Thu, 27 Feb 2003 14:21:13 -0500 (EST)
From: "Lisbeth S. Fried" <lizfried AT umich.edu>
To: "Biblical Hebrew" <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: RE: [b-hebrew] The Priestly Stratum
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 14:26:19 -0500
Message-ID: <NFBBKDEKJBKDMCGCFJNKGEEHENAA.lizfried AT umich.edu>
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0)
Importance: Normal
In-Reply-To: <0bb301c2de92$47b79400$f3afcbd5@nergal>
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106
X-BeenThere: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1
Precedence: list
Reply-To: lizfried AT umich.edu
List-Id: A forum on the Hebrew Bible, its language and interpretation
        <b-hebrew.lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew>,
        <mailto:b-hebrew-request AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/b-hebrew>
List-Post: <mailto:b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Help: <mailto:sympa AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=HELP>
List-Subscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew>,
        <mailto:b-hebrew-request AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 19:19:53 -0000


>
>
> Hi Liz.
>
> > I disagree that the people of pre-Exilic Judah were
> > polytheistic. I don't know that the figurines represented
> > Ashera or that they were worshipped.
>
> If they weren't cultic figurines like all
> the others, what were they?
All what others??
Where were these found?? Were they found in any cultic setting?
I surveyed every Iron II cult setting between Megiddo and Beersheva,
plus the cult site at Tel Dan. I did not find one reference to these
pillar figurines. They are found in domestic contexts only and in
Persian period favissae.

>
> > I don't know who
> > wrote the grafitti on the Kuntillit Adjrud pithoi.
>
> Or the Khirbet el-Qom inscription or at Deir
> el'Alla (with its shadayin gods),
Neither of these sites is in Judah.

 but then the
> archaeological record says that the inhabitants
> of the area were polytheistic
What archaeological record???

and they were so
> even during the period when most people don't
> want them to have been, so with no
> archaeological evidence to support the case one
> asserts monotheism.
>
> Who worshipped at the bamah just outside
> Jerusalem at Malhah (which is now a part
> southern suburbs)? (See de Vaux, Ancient
> Israel, p285.)
I looked up the reference you give. He gives
no footnote, I don't know what is referred to here.
I looked up Malhah in the NEAEHL and found
nothing, I looked up Jerusalem and found nothing
there either. De Vaux seems to be speaking of
a barren hill. If so, it's hard to make anything of it.

I find it amusing that people who spend so much
effort to discredit the biblical text, who debate the
existence of Solomon and David yet are so willing to
take the prophets' word for it that the Jews worshipped
other gods.
>
> > I can tell
> > you tho that there was only one matzevah at Arad, the
> > other one you see in all the photos was part of the wall
> > and had fallen into the cella area.
>
> This is not how A.Mazar and others see it.
> There were in fact two altars in the temple.
> See Mazar's Archaeology..., Doubleday, p497.

That's an error, and that same error is perpetuated over
and over again. If you go to the site you can see for yourself.
-- which I urge everyone to do.

>
> "Placed inside the niche, against the rear
> wall, were two standing stones (massebot);
> one, painted red, was larger than the other.
> At the entrance to the Holy of Holies, there
> were two monolithic stone altars of different
> dimensions, each standing opposite the
> massebah of comparable size."

The other one, the one not painted, was just a fallen
stone. But yes, there are two small incense altars.
>
> Piera Arata Mantovani writes in an Italian
> analysis, "The Arad Temple, annexed to the
> fortress, reflects a single phase (strata
> VII-VI): it was built at the beginning of
> stratum VII (1st half of the 7th c.) and
> remained in use until the final destruction
> of fortress VI, at the beginning of the 6th
> c... two stone stelae... two small stone
> altars..."
I have reanalyzed the stratigraphy, and Ze'ev Herzog
accepts my analysis (personal communication).
>
> It's also interesting to remember that the
> temple in Jerusalem was described as having
> two pillars [`mdym] in the porch.
>
> > All the polemics that you read in Ezekiel, etc. are just their
> > way of explaining the disasters. The temple was captured,
> > the people deported -- ERGO they must have worshipped
> > other gods.
>
> What you need to do first before making such
> pronouncements is to date the text. It was
> written sometime after the fall of Jerusalem
> and before the citations from Qumran, perhaps
> before Ben Sira who knew of the prophet and
> maybe the book. Beyond that, the onus is on
> you to contextualize it, otherwise your ideas
> about significance can't even be considered,
> for the fall of Jerusalem may have been used
> in that text as a trope for other
> circumstances.

You are the one who mentioned Ezekiel. I mention
him and Jeremiah as well, and any other prophet you
like. Hosea and Amos said the same thing, speaking
about their fears of an Assyrian conquest. The point is
that the reason for the conquest is not to be found in
the political situation, but that the people must have
turned away from YHWH.
It is still a trope.

Liz
>
>
> Cheers,
>
>
> Ian
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> b-hebrew mailing list
> b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew