Biblical Hebrew Forum

["Walter Mattfeld" <mattfeld AT mail.pjsnet.com>]

Dear Banyai,

I welcome your observations and rebuttals. You of course, are entitled to
draw your own conclusions.

I simply pointed out that we have nothing before the 2nd century BCE that
"specifically" pinpoints Ur of the Chaldees' location, and that the late 1st
century BCE is the earliest attested statement that Abraham was not of
Chaldea, but of Damascus, Syria. Now of course, this statement by Nicholas
the historian does nothing to support the notion that Abraham was originally
from Urfa (or another nearby unknown UR), in Northern Mesopotamia.

You cannot point to a text and show me where it is "specifically stated"
that Abraham was from UR (Urfa) of Northern Mesopotamia. I have that
advantage over you  with the statements made in Judith 5:5-9.

All you can do is "hypothesize," and, as you know, hypotheses are "a dime a
dozen" in biblical studies without "hard facts" to back them up.

I am aware of all the arguments for the northern UR, but I have never seen
an ancient text (1st century CE or earlier), cited, which stated or implied
Ur lay in Northern Mesopotamia.

Even Josephus, acknowledges what Judith 5:5-9, and Eupolemus (ca. 150 BCE)
state about Chaldea being Abraham's home:

"Now Abraham had two brethren, Nahor and Haran; of these Haran left a son,
Lot; as also Sarai and Milcha his daughters, AND DIED AMONG THE CHALDEANS,
IN A CITY OF THE CHALDEANS, CALLED UR; and his monument is shown to this
day...Now Terah hating Chaldea, on account of his mourning for Haran, they
all removed to Haran of Mesopotamia, where Terah died..."(Josephus,
Antiquities of the Jews, 1.6.5.)

I note that Josephus seems to believe that a monument of some sort was
erected to Haran's memory and that this monument still existed in Josephus'
day. When we look at the statements by Judith 5:5-9 and Eupoleumus, both
stating Abraham was of Chaldea, there evidently existed in Josephus' day a
Chaldean city called Ur. Tell Mugheir/Muqayyar (ancient Uru/Uriwa) did exist
in Josephus' day, in Chaldea, so it is the most likely candidate (despite
the still later Talmud opting for Uruk/Warka, LXX Orech, Genesis' "Erech").
Josephus' work was written in Greek, surely, he would not deceive his
Greek-reading audience with statements that Urfa of northern Mesopotamia is
in Chaldea ?

The evidence is quite clear, despite its being "late",  from the 2nd century
BCE to the 1st century BCE, Chaldea (Babylonia) is "specifically" stated and
presented as Abraham's birth-place.

I will say this much about Urfa, the natives point to a shallow pool with
sacred fish, and they call it the "Lake of Abraham". It is my
nderstanding  -correct me if I am wrong-  that pools with sacred fish were
generally dedicated to the Fish-goddess Atargatis (known to the Greeks of
Syria as early as the 4th century BCE). I know of nothing in early biblical
literature, identifying sacred fish with Abraham (of course the fish was
later identified with Christ, as ICHTHYS, who in turn had associations with
Abraham in the New Testament).

"Atargatis...whose usual name among Greeks and Romans was "the Syrian
Goddess" (Syria Dea, Dea Syria)...At Ascalon, Atargatis was represented as
half woman, half fish. Fish and doves were sacred to her..." (p.199,
"Atargatis," Simon Hornblower & Antony Spawforth, Eds., The Oxford Classical
Dictionary, 3rd edition, Oxford University Press, 1996)

"Fish, Sacred.   Fish, hard to classify biologically and inhabitants of the
alien world of water, had a considerable role in ancient religion...They
were kept in sanctuaries, and sometimes used to provide oracles (as at Sura
in Lycia). The most famous fish observances were connected with the Syrian
cult of Atargatis (Xen. An.1.4.9; Lucian, Syr.D.), which spread to other
areas (Syll.997 is a set of regulations for the care of the fish of this
cult at Smyrna); the priests ate the fish, which were prohibited to other
worshippers." (p.599, "Fish, Sacred," Hornblower & Spawforth)

My best guess, and it is only a guess, is that Urfa's sacred fish were
originally sacred to Atargatis, "Dea Syria," and perhaps, after Christianity
arose in this area, Christ as ICHTHYS, the fish, led to an association later
with Abraham ? If this supposition has any validity, then Urfa's association
with Abraham via its sacred fish, is after Christianity arose in that area.
This would make for a much later "Northern" UR claim than the Chaldean UR of
Judith, Eupolemus, and Josephus.

All the best,

Walter

Walter Reinhold Warttig Mattfeld
Walldorf by Heidelberg
Baden-Wurttemburg
Germany