Biblical Hebrew Forum

["Peter Kirk" <Peter_Kirk AT sil.org>]

If (as some people seem to believe) the name et-Tell and its general
geographical suitability is conclusive evidence for the location of Ai...
Surely the similarity of ancient names (Urhai in Aramaic, Orra in Greek,
Orr(h)ei in Latin) and the proximity to Haran is good evidence that
Urfa/Edessa is to be identified with Ur of the Chaldees. That is, if you
interpret Genesis 11:31 as supporting, rather
than ruling out, the proxmity of Ur to Haran.

There may be no archaeological evidence from the right time at Urfa (nor is
there at et-Tell), but it is unlikely that it sprang into being from nothing
as a major centre in Hellenistic times. More probably, I submit, any more
ancient remains are hidden under the Hellenistic or modern cities, or have
been destroyed by them.

From my Christian perspective, it would seem very fitting that the city of
Abraham would be the first city to become officially Christian - the
distinction Edessa holds in church history.

Peter Kirk

----- Original Message -----
From: Walter Mattfeld <mattfeld AT mail.pjsnet.com>
To: Biblical Hebrew <b-hebrew AT franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2000 10:38 PM
Subject: Ur of the Chaldees vs. Urfa


> Dear Banyai,
>
> I welcome your observations and rebuttals. You of course, are entitled to
> draw your own conclusions.
>
> I simply pointed out that we have nothing before the 2nd century BCE that
> "specifically" pinpoints Ur of the Chaldees' location, and that the late
1st
> century BCE is the earliest attested statement that Abraham was not of
> Chaldea, but of Damascus, Syria. Now of course, this statement by Nicholas
> the historian does nothing to support the notion that Abraham was
originally
> from Urfa (or another nearby unknown UR), in Northern Mesopotamia.
>
> You cannot point to a text and show me where it is "specifically stated"
> that Abraham was from UR (Urfa) of Northern Mesopotamia. I have that
> advantage over you  with the statements made in Judith 5:5-9.
>
> All you can do is "hypothesize," and, as you know, hypotheses are "a dime
a
> dozen" in biblical studies without "hard facts" to back them up.
>
> I am aware of all the arguments for the northern UR, but I have never seen
> an ancient text (1st century CE or earlier), cited, which stated or
implied
> Ur lay in Northern Mesopotamia.
>
> Even Josephus, acknowledges what Judith 5:5-9, and Eupolemus (ca. 150 BCE)
> state about Chaldea being Abraham's home:
>
> "Now Abraham had two brethren, Nahor and Haran; of these Haran left a son,
> Lot; as also Sarai and Milcha his daughters, AND DIED AMONG THE CHALDEANS,
> IN A CITY OF THE CHALDEANS, CALLED UR; and his monument is shown to this
> day...Now Terah hating Chaldea, on account of his mourning for Haran, they
> all removed to Haran of Mesopotamia, where Terah died..."(Josephus,
> Antiquities of the Jews, 1.6.5.)
>
> I note that Josephus seems to believe that a monument of some sort was
> erected to Haran's memory and that this monument still existed in
Josephus'
> day. When we look at the statements by Judith 5:5-9 and Eupoleumus, both
> stating Abraham was of Chaldea, there evidently existed in Josephus' day a
> Chaldean city called Ur. Tell Mugheir/Muqayyar (ancient Uru/Uriwa) did
exist
> in Josephus' day, in Chaldea, so it is the most likely candidate (despite
> the still later Talmud opting for Uruk/Warka, LXX Orech, Genesis'
"Erech").
> Josephus' work was written in Greek, surely, he would not deceive his
> Greek-reading audience with statements that Urfa of northern Mesopotamia
is
> in Chaldea ?
>
> The evidence is quite clear, despite its being "late",  from the 2nd
century
> BCE to the 1st century BCE, Chaldea (Babylonia) is "specifically" stated
and
> presented as Abraham's birth-place.
>
> I will say this much about Urfa, the natives point to a shallow pool with
> sacred fish, and they call it the "Lake of Abraham". It is my
> nderstanding  -correct me if I am wrong-  that pools with sacred fish were
> generally dedicated to the Fish-goddess Atargatis (known to the Greeks of
> Syria as early as the 4th century BCE). I know of nothing in early
biblical
> literature, identifying sacred fish with Abraham (of course the fish was
> later identified with Christ, as ICHTHYS, who in turn had associations
with
> Abraham in the New Testament).
>
> "Atargatis...whose usual name among Greeks and Romans was "the Syrian
> Goddess" (Syria Dea, Dea Syria)...At Ascalon, Atargatis was represented as
> half woman, half fish. Fish and doves were sacred to her..." (p.199,
> "Atargatis," Simon Hornblower & Antony Spawforth, Eds., The Oxford
Classical
> Dictionary, 3rd edition, Oxford University Press, 1996)
>
> "Fish, Sacred.   Fish, hard to classify biologically and inhabitants of
the
> alien world of water, had a considerable role in ancient religion...They
> were kept in sanctuaries, and sometimes used to provide oracles (as at
Sura
> in Lycia). The most famous fish observances were connected with the Syrian
> cult of Atargatis (Xen. An.1.4.9; Lucian, Syr.D.), which spread to other
> areas (Syll.997 is a set of regulations for the care of the fish of this
> cult at Smyrna); the priests ate the fish, which were prohibited to other
> worshippers." (p.599, "Fish, Sacred," Hornblower & Spawforth)
>
> My best guess, and it is only a guess, is that Urfa's sacred fish were
> originally sacred to Atargatis, "Dea Syria," and perhaps, after
Christianity
> arose in this area, Christ as ICHTHYS, the fish, led to an association
later
> with Abraham ? If this supposition has any validity, then Urfa's
association
> with Abraham via its sacred fish, is after Christianity arose in that
area.
> This would make for a much later "Northern" UR claim than the Chaldean UR
of
> Judith, Eupolemus, and Josephus.
>
> All the best,
>
> Walter
>
> Walter Reinhold Warttig Mattfeld
> Walldorf by Heidelberg
> Baden-Wurttemburg
> Germany
>
>
>
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