Biblical Hebrew Forum

[Niels Peter Lemche <npl AT teol.ku.dk>]

And don't forget that  Luther saw these verses as referring to the Romans (a
prophecy). I have pointed to the fact that Karl David Ilgen in 1797
reinterpreted Luther and saw it as a vaticinium ex eventur talking about
Alexander.

NPL

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Peter Kirk [SMTP:peter_kirk AT sil.org]
> Sent: Saturday, 22 January, 2000 02:47
> To:   Biblical Hebrew
> Subject:      Re[2]: Gilgamesh and Genesis
> 
> Don't forget the reference to Asshur, or Assyria, in Numbers 24:22,24, 
> on the lips of Balaam from the Euphrates (22:5) You may want to argue 
> that these verses are a later addition or evidence for late dating. 
> But beware of circular reasoning: don't excise these verses as late 
> because you assume that Assyria cannot be mentioned in the Pentateuch 
> and then argue from your edited text that Assyria is indeed not 
> mentioned in the Pentateuch.
> 
> Peter Kirk
> 
> 
> ______________________________ Reply Separator
> _________________________________
> Subject: Re: Gilgamesh and Genesis
> Author:  <dwashbur AT nyx.net> at Internet
> Date:    21/01/2000 07:58
> 
> <snip>
> 
> > I do not subscribe to the JPDS theory which among other things posits
> parts 
> > of Genesis to have been written by a Jahwist in the court of King
> Solomon
> > some time in the 10th century BCE. My research, as indicated in my
> earlier 
> > post, contradicts this notion. If Genesis is really 10th century BCE why
> > isn't Asshur mentioned as the leading city of Assyria, which it was from
> the 
> > 14th century BCE until eclipsed by Calah being made the capital by
> > Assurnasirpal II ( 885-859 BCE) in the 9th century BCE, followed by
> Nineveh 
> > becoming the capital under Sennacherib in 704 BCE ?
> 
> I too reject the DH.  As for Asshur, Gen 10:11, 12 may hint at it 
> since the text says Nimrod went there and in that region built 
> Nineveh and the other cities.  I find it easy to see "Asshur" here as
> the name of a city-state rather than a region, or at least I don't see 
> anything that particularly rules it out.
> 
> > How could the Jahwist in 960 BCE not know of the capital city ofAsshur,
> > famous since the 14th century BCE (Asshur the city is never mentioned in
> the 
> > Bible, as pointed out by Grayson) ?
> 
> Where would you expect to see a reference to it and why?  The 
> Pentateuch stories revolve around Haran, Canaan and Egypt.  It pre- 
> settlement times I wonder how major a power Assyria/Asshur was;
> if it wasn't much and didn't have a whole lot of influence, there 
> would have been no good reason to discuss it in the context of the 
> Pentateuch.  Asshur the city/region/whatever is mentioned in 
> passing in Gen 2:24, but if there wasn't any particularly powerful 
> Assyrian empire at the time of writing (i.e. assuming 14th-century 
> writing) then it would seem that a) this does indeed refer to the 
> city, and b) a passing reference used merely as a geographical 
> marker is about all the mention it would warrant.
> 
> > Grayson makes the following observations about the city Asshur: 
> >
> > "The city Asshur, which was the original capital of the kingdom of
> Assyria, 
> > is also never specifically referred to in the Bible...In the 14th
> century BC 
> > Asshur became the capital of a land which was for the first time called
> > Assyria...Asshur continued to be the capital until the 9th century BC
> when 
> > Ashurnasirpal II (883-859 BC) moved the capital to Calah. Then in the
> 7th 
> > century BC the capital was once again moved, this time by Sennacherib
> > (704-681 BC) to Nineveh." (cf. p.500, Vol. 1, A.K. Grayson, "Asshur,"
> David 
> > Noel Freedman, Ed., The Anchor Bible Dictionary, New York, Doubleday,
> 1992, 
> > ISBN 0-385-19351-3)
> >
> >  How could Moses in 1440 BCE or the Jahwist in 960 BCE know of Calah ? 
> > Grayson observes about Calah:
> >
> > "...Calah was of no significance in the 3d and 2d millenium BC. It was
> > singled out for importance only in the 9th century BC when Assurnasirpal
> II 
> > chose it as his capital. Assurnasirpal totally transformed the
> insignificant 
> > village into a metropolis which was suitable to be the center of the
> empire 
> > he created." (cf. p.808, Vol.1, A.K. Grayson, "Calah," David Noel
> Freedman, 
> > Ed., The Anchor Bible Dictionary, Doubleday, 1992)
> 
> Neither of these cuts any real ice with me.  In the first place, as I 
> have pointed out, it's possible the Pentateuch does in fact refer to 
> Asshur the city.  Second, why should Calah's lack of prominence 
> prevent Moses or a contemporary from knowing about or consulting
> an ancient record or tradition about the city's founding?  Once 
> again there's an awful lot of assumption going on here with no real 
> substance to establish it.  The point in Gen 10 is not the relative 
> importance of Calah, but the (assumed) fact that Nimrod was its 
> founder; IOW, the focus is on the person, not on the city.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> 
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