Biblical Hebrew Forum

[peter_kirk AT sil.org]

Sorry, Bill, this is not intended to be an answer to your question, 
but rather a related point possibly supporting your suggestion.

I was looking at this psalm with a speaker of a language which often 
uses idioms similar to Hebrew. When we came to this verse, my 
colleague, who understood the verse to mean something like the NIV 
translation, rejected a rather literal suggested translation into her 
own language with the comment that "we can't say this, it means that 
David was an illegitimate child!" We had to find a more indirect way 
to express the meaning of NIV. But I wondered at the time, does the 
Hebrew expression actually mean just that, that David is saying he was 
illegitimate? No doubt this could be taken as helping to confirm the 
theory of David Rosenberg recently mentioned by Robert Vining: "David 
Rosenberg, in, "The Book of David" theorizes  David's father to be 
Jesse; his mother an aboriginal slave woman." But I would think that 
more probably in the context the psalmist could be saying that he is 
cut off from the worshipping community by his sin just as surely as if 
he were illegitimate. But does that interpretation fit the Hebrew 
text?

Peter Kirk



______________________________ Reply Separator 
_________________________________
Subject: Re: Psalm 51:5
Author:  <wross AT farmerstel.com> at Internet
Date:    11/01/2000 10:59


I have considered the genre and don't agree with your interpretation. What I 
was seeking was an evaluation of the Hebrew words themselves - that is the 
grammar.

* What is the precise wording. "In sin" or "With sin"?
* Is it explicit in the words whether the "in/with" applies to David or the 
mother?

In other words,

* who is the subject of the sentence, David or his mama?
* if "in/with sin" is adjectival, who/what do they describe? David or his 
mother? Or his birth?

Many thanks.

Bill Ross

-----Original Message-----
From: Kevin W. Woodruff [mailto:cierpke AT prodigy.net] 
Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2000 9:15 AM
To: Biblical Hebrew
Cc: b-hebrew AT franklin.oit.unc.edu
Subject: Re: Psalm 51:5


Bill:

I think you have to take the genre of the Pslam  in mind when interpreting 
this passage. This is one of the pentitental psalms. David is confessing his 
sin with Bathsheba. Bearing this in mind, David is confessing his guilt and 
is saying that this sin was not an impulsive action done in the heat of 
passion, but that his very nature even from birth is to commit sin. He is 
saying I'm a sinner, not just a one-time sinner, but a person who has had 
sin nature from birth. the sin and iniquity is David's not his mothers

Kevin



At 11:16 AM 1/10/2000, you wrote:
>Hello, my name is Bill Ross. I'm new to B-Hebrew. I'm just learning Hebrew. 
>I joined this list because I often have questions of a translation nature 
>and hope to tap into your collected expertise.
>
>I have a question regarding the proper translation (and hence, 
>interpretation) of Psalm 51:5. Here are some popular translations: 
>
>NIV
>Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me. 
>RSV
>Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive 
>me.
>KJV
>Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. 
>DBY
>Behold, in iniquity was I brought forth, and in sin did my mother conceive 
>me.
>YLT
>Lo, in iniquity I have been brought forth, And in sin doth my mother 
>conceive me.
>
>I know enough from my tools to know that the NIV is *highly* interpretive. 
>
>My theory is that this verse is not teaching anything about David, but is 
>rather David expressing loathing for himself by criminalizing his own 
>birth. I would paraphrase it:
>
>"My mother screwed up when she had me - it was a sin for her to conceive 
>me!"
>
>...and thus David "curses his day" as did Job in Job 3: 
>
<snip>