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b-hebrew - re: Translation of Piel (and Pual) roots

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Subject: Biblical Hebrew Forum

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  • From: yochanan bitan <ButhFam AT compuserve.com>
  • To: "INTERNET:rwburks AT flash.net" <rwburks AT flash.net>
  • Cc: b-hebrew <b-hebrew AT franklin.oit.unc.edu>
  • Subject: re: Translation of Piel (and Pual) roots
  • Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999 16:48:58 -0500


rwburks:
>Using the Perfect Piel for example the use of Piel with the 3ms form of
Piel for the
>word Q+L might be translated "he brutally killed." Some treat it as
causative almost like a
>Hifil. Other grammars indicated that the Piel root (and for that matter
the Pual root, while
>being the passive) speak of the resultive or factive nature of the stem.
The same word with a
>transitive would require an object like "he killed Tom". Or if
intransitive it would be with no
>object "He killed" . The latter it seems would be difficult to
distinguish from the Qal form to
>me.

RB:
your email comes as a timely example of a parallel discussion going on on
this list.
what you have listed above shows that you are a good student and have been
making progress with what has been taught to you.

unfortunately, what you have been taught is misleading, or inside-out.
it is etymology in place of semantics.
let me illustrate:
*qittel above does not exist.
it is not a word. you are not allowed to "conjugate" new vocabulary.

--but you might ask: couldn't a speaker create a new word?
--answer: yes, of course. in fact qittel is attested in medieval hebrew
(post-talmudic, piyyutim).

to what may this be compared?
what would you think about an english student and grammar that said:
"he killed them up", "she killed them up", "i killed them up", etc?

what does it mean? what would you tell an english teacher who taught that
to students?

i would wish better for our field.

RWB:
>What does the use of Piel and Pual really tell me about the nature of how
it should be
>translated.

RB:
piel doesn't tell you anything until you know what the word means.
[this is not a zen koan(sp?).]
after you know what the word means you know what the word means
(semantics).
you might be able to group it in a sub-category of pi`el's that show
similar semantic relationships with related verbs (etymology).

elef braxot
randall buth




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