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  • From: peter_kirk AT sil.org
  • To: <b-hebrew AT franklin.oit.unc.edu>
  • Subject: Re[6]: Josephus & 1Esdras (Peter)
  • Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 22:52:15 -0400


Thank you, Ian. But all of these seems quite compatible with my own
theory:

1) Josephus was brought up with and knew fairly well the 22 books
(according to his reckoning) in Hebrew corresponding to the whole of
the existing MT, including Ezra.

2) Josephus when composing his writings used the best available Greek
translations of these books, namely the Septuagint (or something
similar). Either he did not have the Hebrew text available in the
Gentile setting in which he was working, or he chose to work from the
Greek text because he was writing in Greek. (If you, Ian, were writing
a paper on the Bible in Italian, would you have open in front of you
an Italian Bible or an English one?) Obviously he followed the Greek
text in front of him when spelling names.

In the Greek translation which Josephus used, significant amounts of
extra material were added to some of the books and some reordering too
place, including the changes from Ezra to 1 Esdras, similarly long
interpolations in Daniel and Esther, considerable reordering in
Jeremiah, and significant variants in other places. By the way, can we
tell whether Josephus followed the Greek or the Hebrew in Daniel,
Esther and Jeremiah? Presumably Josephus, as an intelligent (even
crafty) man, recognised the differences between the Hebrew and the
Greek versions. Perhaps he even quite deliberately chose to follow the
Greek version, because to follow the Hebrew would have left him much
more open to the charge from his Greek-speaking readers that either he
or someone else had distorted the Scriptures. Well, we can only
speculate on Josephus' motives. But there are certainly more ways to
read the data than the one you are putting forward.

As for your corollary on Nehemiah, I think this question depends on the
obviously complex textual history of the Greek Esdras materials. The
Greek text of 1 Esdras as we have it ends abruptly (see the NRSV
footnote) in the middle of a sentence, whereas the text continues both
in the Hebrew Nehemiah 8:13 and in the Greek ESDRAS B 18:13. Apparently
the whole of Hebrew Ezra and Nehemiah is reflected in ESDRAS B, and
presumably you would suggest that Josephus did not have ESDRAS B.
ESDRAS A = 1 Esdras, which Josephus apparently had in front of him,
starts with material not found in Hebrew followed by something similar
to the whole of the Hebrew book of Ezra, and then the last half chapter
is similar to part of Nehemiah chapter 8. But how much more of Nehemiah
was in the original text of 1 Esdras, or in the version in front of
Josephus which may not have been truncated? Perhaps Josephus' version
included Nehemiah chapters 1-6, following chapters 8 and 9. For that
matter, perhaps Josephus chose not to use the Nehemiah 7-13 simply
because much of the material is lists of names which were of little
interest, or perhaps his copy of Nehemiah was defective. Too many
perhapses I'm afraid to draw any real conclusions, certainly for
someone with your rigorous approach to history.

By the way, what is the date of the earliest manuscripts of Josephus or
other definite evidence of his existence? How can you use him as a
source for anything earlier than that? Surely, by your exacting
standards, the dating of his writings to any date before those earliest
manuscripts and his very existence are pure speculation and should be
ruled out of court in any discussion of anything. To quote your other
E-mail in the similar context of the NT, "1) you don't know when the
texts were written; 2) you don't know who wrote them; 3) you don't know
the connection between the writers and Palestine." Except that at least
we can date much of the NT before the end of the 2nd century as we have
dateable manuscripts, whereas I guess the deadline for Josephus is much
later. So why do you treat the (alleged) works of Josephus as a good
source but reject my parallel use of the NT?

Peter Kirk


______________________________ Reply Separator
_________________________________
Subject: Re[5]: Josephus & 1Esdras (Peter)
Author: mc2499 AT mclink.it at internet
Date: 15/07/1999 17:02


Peter asked:

>Can you please clarify one point here. Did Josephus have in front of
>him the Hebrew of the books (or most of them) now in the Tanakh, or
>might he have had them only in Greek translation (LXX or something
>similar)? Is there any clear evidence on this point? If he did not
>have the rest of the Tanakh in Hebrew, it is hardly significant that
>he did not have the Hebrew version of Ezra.

I don't know. Josephus says that he is much more at home with Hebrew and I
would think that he had copies of the available Hebrew texts -- what does
it take for a well-connected soul like him to get the texts he wanted?
However, in the one case regarding Ezra, he seems to be using 1 Esdras in
Greek.

But, the fact that he was using the Greek text of 1 Esdras -- which is
obviously a translation from a Hebrew source which is not the canonical
book of Ezra -- when he had a good idea of which texts were available,
including numerous other sources of Hebrew knowledge, brings into doubt the
existence of the canonical book, especially when you look at the evidence
for the existence of the book of Ezra prior to the second or third century.
Josephus is the evidence that 1 Esdras existed.

>Also, do you have the reference in Josephus to a supposed list of
>books which excludes Ezra?

As you note below, I didn't mention a list of book names.

>I refer to what you wrote: "He gives us an
>outline of the most accepted Jewish works that seems to reflect some
>notion of canon, but he didn't have Ezra!" The nearest I can find is
>from "Against Apion" 1:8:

Yes, this is the indication that there was a restricted selection of books
that were recognised as -- for want of better words -- authoritative.

> but only twenty-two books,
>
> and of them five belong to Moses...
> the prophets, who were after
> Moses, wrote down what was done in their times in thirteen books.
> The remaining four books contain hymns to God, and precepts for
> the conduct of human life
>
>This seems to show that the Hebrew scriptures (which Josephus is
>contrasting with unreliable Greek writings) consisted of a series of
>reliable books covering the period up to Artaxerxes - which is the
>time of Ezra (according to MT).

Yup. That's what it seems. Josephus believed that sorta stuff. Josephus
lived 500 years later. His outline was at most valid for his own times.

>This strongly suggests to me that
>Josephus knew of some form of the story of Ezra in Hebrew, though this
>was probably not what was in front of him when he wrote.

Unfortunately there is nothing to help you with this theory. Josephus knew
a *text* which he had before him, whose strict order he followed and that
order was exactly that of 1 Esdras. He used the specific Greek forms of
names found in 1 Esdras that were very different from those of canonical
Ezra. It would be good for you to check this out for yourself.

>And then what
>exactly were the 22 books he had in mind?

He didn't say. He did however follow 1 Esdras closely, for it was evidently
authoritative for him.

>Later Jewish sources count
>24 books, including Ezra and Nehemiah together. "New Bible Dictionary"
>refers to Origen, Epiphanius and Jerome in suggesting that Josepus
>counted togther Judges and Ruth, also Jeremiah and Lamentations, and
>on this basis Josephus must have counted Ezra/Nehemiah, as a single
>book, as part of his presumably Hebrew canon.

By the time of Origen, Epiphanius and Jerome, Ezra was a canonical book.
There testimony is irrelevant for any time prior to their own experience.
If you want to show that the canonical book of Ezra was around earlier, you
need earlier testimony. Josephus, as I have said, is testimony for the
existence of 1 Esdras.



Cheers,


Ian


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